What it took to get wings in WW II.

Subject: What it took to get wings in WW II.
From: "Keith Willshaw"
Date: 7/13/03 12:37 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...


Keith,
I would be interested to know the course of academic study in the RAF.
What
math and physics? How high the washout rate (,more or less)before even
getting
to flying school? How high the washout rate for physical reasons? Any
idea?.


In the case of Frank Harbord the only screening he mentions prior to
attending
flying school was a fairly standard medical which included eyesight and
depth
perception. There were no academic requirements and the washout rate for all
reasons seems to have been low. They all received training as navigators,
gunners
and bomb aimers and were allocated duties pretty much on overall performance
and operational requirements.

He was 18 years old and had been working in a local factory and
was a member of the territorial army when he volunteered as an
air observer.

Of the 60 men who enlisted with him 55 made it into squadron service.
Only about 5% survived the war, most being killed in the desperate attacks
of summer 1940 when unescorted Blenheims and Battles were taking 80%
casualties in single raids attempting to stop the German advance in France.

Keith


80% casualties(aaargh) ! Those were times that tried mens souls. (sigh)
I guess that is why Churchill said, " I can build an Air Force second to none
with America's washed out pilots".

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Art, come on, do you have to?


Qman

BTW, Art, I graduated from Aviation Cadet Class 54H at Webb AFB (Big
Spring). FWIW the wash-out rate of 54H at BGS was 47%.
Walt BJ

dd upSubject: What it took to get wings in WW II.
From: (Walt BJ)
Date: 7/13/03 6:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

BTW, Art, I graduated from Aviation Cadet Class 54H at Webb AFB (Big
Spring). FWIW the wash-out rate of 54H at BGS was 47%.
Walt BJ


But when we add up the wash-out rates from day one physicals and tests then
add basic training, CTD, Classification then flying schools, the total has to
be well over 95%. Many are called few are chosen. Do you know why they called
it BIg Spring? Because there was no water. It was down the road from Swee****er
where the water was all alkali.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

But when we add up the wash-out rates from day one physicals and tests then
add basic training, CTD, Classification then flying schools, the total has to
be well over 95%.

I think that estimate is much too high. I don't know how many pilots
there were in the Air Corps during WW II (are you also including
bombardiers and navigators?), but if they were only two or three
percent of the number who started, then the starting number would have
to have been larger than the entire U.S. male population!

Roughly speaking.

vince norris

Subject: What it took to get wings in WW II.
From: vincent p. norris
Date: 7/14/03 7:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

But when we add up the wash-out rates from day one physicals and tests
then
add basic training, CTD, Classification then flying schools, the total has
to
be well over 95%.

I think that estimate is much too high. I don't know how many pilots
there were in the Air Corps during WW II (are you also including
bombardiers and navigators?), but if they were only two or three
percent of the number who started, then the starting number would have
to have been larger than the entire U.S. male population!

Roughly speaking.

vince norris



How can you know that when you don't know the final number?

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
dd upSubject: What it took to get wings in WW II.
From: (Walt BJ)
Date: 7/13/03 6:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

BTW, Art, I graduated from Aviation Cadet Class 54H at Webb AFB (Big
Spring). FWIW the wash-out rate of 54H at BGS was 47%.
Walt BJ


But when we add up the wash-out rates from day one physicals and tests
then
add basic training, CTD, Classification then flying schools, the total has
to
be well over 95%. Many are called few are chosen.

I am inclined to believe that the USAAF of the day, which already was an
elite organization due to its unique activities, elected to set the
standards for piloting so very high in an effort to assure that it would
have on hand sufficient numbers of healthy and bright men to assign, after
"washing out" or otherwise not being selected for pilot duties (Needs of the
Service) to other flight duties which were also VERY important. (Art Kramer,
am I mistaken, or wasn't the "typical" bombardier a well-qualified
specimen, from the standpoints of physical readiness and quick wits? And the
navigators, as well?)

Many were called, indeed. But I have a hunch that quite a large proportion
of the men who were not assigned to pilot duties could probably HAVE been so
assigned, and maybe would have been, except for the Needs of the Service.
And unless competent guys were selected for training in the OTHER important
crew duties, the USAAF would hardly have been so successful in the
aggregate. It managed to find first-rate men for all crew duties, including
especially those of bombardier and navigator.

Becoming a competent bombardier was no easy task. Air navigation, especially
where weather, winds, undercasts, overcasts, etc were concerned was no walk
in the park, either.

Am I completely off-base? Request your commentary.

Subject: What it took to get wings in WW II.
From: "Lawrence Dillard"
Date: 7/14/03 9:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
dd upSubject: What it took to get wings in WW II.
From: (Walt BJ)
Date: 7/13/03 6:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

BTW, Art, I graduated from Aviation Cadet Class 54H at Webb AFB (Big
Spring). FWIW the wash-out rate of 54H at BGS was 47%.
Walt BJ


But when we add up the wash-out rates from day one physicals and tests
then
add basic training, CTD, Classification then flying schools, the total has
to
be well over 95%. Many are called few are chosen.

I am inclined to believe that the USAAF of the day, which already was an
elite organization due to its unique activities, elected to set the
standards for piloting so very high in an effort to assure that it would
have on hand sufficient numbers of healthy and bright men to assign, after
"washing out" or otherwise not being selected for pilot duties (Needs of the
Service) to other flight duties which were also VERY important. (Art Kramer,
am I mistaken, or wasn't the "typical" bombardier a well-qualified
specimen, from the standpoints of physical readiness and quick wits? And the
navigators, as well?)

Many were called, indeed. But I have a hunch that quite a large proportion
of the men who were not assigned to pilot duties could probably HAVE been so
assigned, and maybe would have been, except for the Needs of the Service.
And unless competent guys were selected for training in the OTHER important
crew duties, the USAAF would hardly have been so successful in the
aggregate. It managed to find first-rate men for all crew duties, including
especially those of bombardier and navigator.

Becoming a competent bombardier was no easy task. Air navigation, especially
where weather, winds, undercasts, overcasts, etc were concerned was no walk
in the park, either.

Am I completely off-base? Request your commentary.



No you are not off base. But I never went through pilot training. I was
classified as a Bombardier right out of San Antonio since my tests indicated
that was what I was best suited for. And I think they were right, I really
enjoyed the Norden and navigating and did quite well at it. I graduated second
in my class at Big Spring and was assigned to Marauders as were all those guys
at the top of the class. This is to dispel any idea that bombardiers and
navigators were all washed out pilots, Very few were. The highest math skills
were needed by the Navigators. I know many pilots who were totally befuddled
by what it took to navigate celestially. Each specialty had its special demands
and we were chosen to fill those jobs based on our skills. But I am sure that
you are right and many who washed out were moved into jobs where there talents
could best be used.


Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

(ArtKramr) wrote in message ...
Subject: What it took to get wings in WW II.
From: "Lawrence Dillard"
Date: 7/14/03 9:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
dd upSubject: What it took to get wings in WW II.
From: (Walt BJ)
Date: 7/13/03 6:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

BTW, Art, I graduated from Aviation Cadet Class 54H at Webb AFB (Big
Spring). FWIW the wash-out rate of 54H at BGS was 47%.
Walt BJ


But when we add up the wash-out rates from day one physicals and tests
then
add basic training, CTD, Classification then flying schools, the total has
to
be well over 95%. Many are called few are chosen.

I am inclined to believe that the USAAF of the day, which already was an
elite organization due to its unique activities, elected to set the
standards for piloting so very high in an effort to assure that it would
have on hand sufficient numbers of healthy and bright men to assign, after
"washing out" or otherwise not being selected for pilot duties (Needs of the
Service) to other flight duties which were also VERY important. (Art Kramer,
am I mistaken, or wasn't the "typical" bombardier a well-qualified
specimen, from the standpoints of physical readiness and quick wits? And the
navigators, as well?)

Many were called, indeed. But I have a hunch that quite a large proportion
of the men who were not assigned to pilot duties could probably HAVE been so
assigned, and maybe would have been, except for the Needs of the Service.
And unless competent guys were selected for training in the OTHER important
crew duties, the USAAF would hardly have been so successful in the
aggregate. It managed to find first-rate men for all crew duties, including
especially those of bombardier and navigator.

Becoming a competent bombardier was no easy task. Air navigation, especially
where weather, winds, undercasts, overcasts, etc were concerned was no walk
in the park, either.

Am I completely off-base? Request your commentary.



No you are not off base. But I never went through pilot training. I was
classified as a Bombardier right out of San Antonio since my tests indicated
that was what I was best suited for. And I think they were right, I really
enjoyed the Norden and navigating and did quite well at it. I graduated second
in my class at Big Spring and was assigned to Marauders as were all those guys
at the top of the class. This is to dispel any idea that bombardiers and
navigators were all washed out pilots, Very few were. The highest math skills
were needed by the Navigators. I know many pilots who were totally befuddled
by what it took to navigate celestially. Each specialty had its special demands
and we were chosen to fill those jobs based on our skills. But I am sure that
you are right and many who washed out were moved into jobs where there talents
could best be used.


Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

My pilot training class was 56U. I flew PA-18s and T-6Gs at Hondo AB,
TX and B-25s at Goodfellow AFB, TX. The class was a combination of
student officers from the ROTC programs and Aviation Cadets. I think
the overall washout rate after starting training was slightly less
than 40%. I remember at lease one SIE (self initiated elimination).
After getting my pilot wings I was sent to AOB (Air Observer
Bombardier) training at James Connally AFB because I was going to SAC
in RB-47s and Gen. Lemay wanted one of the two pilots to be triple
rated. I got navigator wings from that school and was rated as
navigator and radar bombardier. We were called "triple headed
monsters". As a new co-pilot on an RB-47 I helped the RN with mission
planning and celestial precomps. I did all the sextant work from a
port at the co-pilot's position. I also plotted all three star fixes
on a Vaid computer as a back up to the RN and gave him a range and
bearing from the assumed position for a cross check. I never made a
radar bomb run in B-47s or B-52s, but I think I had a better
understanding of the N and RNs jobs because of my training.

Gene Myers

Subject: What it took to get wings in WW II.
From: (buf3)
Date: 7/15/03 8:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

My pilot training class was 56U. I flew PA-18s and T-6Gs at Hondo AB,
TX and B-25s at Goodfellow AFB, TX. The class was a combination of
student officers from the ROTC programs and Aviation Cadets. I think
the overall washout rate after starting training was slightly less
than 40%. I remember at lease one SIE (self initiated elimination).
After getting my pilot wings I was sent to AOB (Air Observer
Bombardier) training at James Connally AFB because I was going to SAC
in RB-47s and Gen. Lemay wanted one of the two pilots to be triple
rated. I got navigator wings from that school and was rated as
navigator and radar bombardier. We were called "triple headed
monsters". As a new co-pilot on an RB-47 I helped the RN with mission
planning and celestial precomps. I did all the sextant work from a
port at the co-pilot's position. I also plotted all three star fixes
on a Vaid computer as a back up to the RN and gave him a range and
bearing from the assumed position for a cross check. I never made a
radar bomb run in B-47s or B-52s, but I think I had a better
understanding of the N and RNs jobs because of my training.

Gene Myers

That is impressive. We always welcome experienced military fliers here on this
NG. Can't have too many of them. I remember when the idea came up of making
B-26 Bombardiers also qualified DR navigators It was revoutionery to get one
more guy off the B-26 crews. Now multiple task crew members are routine. And
it is all for the best. The more you know the better. Although we just had to
know DR, we were also breifly trained in celestial, which we never used, yet
guys washed out because they couldn't derive the astro tables or get through
the HO-216 fast enough. BTW, that 40% washout rate in your class was just for
flying school, right?


Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer