What's a "Cloverleaf" Maneuver?

On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 14:30:57 GMT, Ed Rasimus wrote:


Note in your original post and again in the lead to this elaboration
the parenthetical notice that the maneuver was "at a 30-degree angle,
not vertically down."

Just as the description of what Lowell was doing isn't technically a
"Cloverleaf", so also this is not a "split-S." It's a descending hard
turn, almost what is referred to in more modern terminology as a
"sliceback". Whenever you use some descending vertical in a turn, you
decrease your turn radius gaining some radial G from gravity.

To return to the original description of Lowell's maneuver, it sounds
as though he was exercising a series of high and low yo-yos. First, to
control overtake and reduce angles, he pulls the nose up to slow and
minimize overshoot of the target's turning circle. Then from high
slightly outside the target flight path in a lag pursuit position, he
rolls over and lowers the nose to take a cut across the target's
circle and gain closer. A high yo-yo, followed by a low yo-yo.

It's not a yo-yo maneuver Ed, it's purely a horizontal exercise. Let's see if I
can explain it this way for those unfamiliar with the ACM.

Picture a purely circular race track, You have two cars racing around the track,
one on the inside of the track, the other up along the outer wall. Periodically,
the car to the outside of the track pulls down to the inside edge. However, his
tires lose grip and he slides back up to the outer wall again.

In the instance where Lowell was dueling with the Spit XII, both aircraft were
flying in a lufberry. Periodically, Lowell would pinch in, momentarily pulling
lead. However, his P-38 would rapidly scrub off speed and begin to mush,
whereupon he would ease off the elevators and assume his position to the outside
of the Spitfire's turning circle.

This maneuver will only work once or twice, because the Spitfire's smaller
turning radius will eventually prevail. One could certainly pull the nose high
into a yo-yo and cut across the Spit's turn radius, diving into a low yo-yo to
repeat the process. Naturally this assumes that the Spit driver doesn't reverse
out of his lufberry and counter your yo-yo with a rolling scissors. Yet, with
that huge Griffon turning a 5-bladed prop, the Spit XII was loath to roll
against torque (though not as bad as the Mk.XIV) at low speeds. It's difficult
to force an overshoot when it takes forever (relatively speaking) to reverse
direction. Then again, the P-38 was sluggish on the ailerons at low speeds
itself, although a boot full of rudder helps some and will aid in scrubbing
speed. But, either way, the Spitfire has a clean stall speed nearly the same as
the P-38L with the fowlers nearly all the way out.

My regards,

Widewing (C.C. Jordan)
http://www.worldwar2aviation.com
http://www.netaces.org
http://www.hitechcreations.com

(Corey C. Jordan) wrote:

On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 14:30:57 GMT, Ed Rasimus wrote:

To return to the original description of Lowell's maneuver, it sounds
as though he was exercising a series of high and low yo-yos. First, to
control overtake and reduce angles, he pulls the nose up to slow and
minimize overshoot of the target's turning circle. Then from high
slightly outside the target flight path in a lag pursuit position, he
rolls over and lowers the nose to take a cut across the target's
circle and gain closer. A high yo-yo, followed by a low yo-yo.

It's not a yo-yo maneuver Ed, it's purely a horizontal exercise. Let's see if I
can explain it this way for those unfamiliar with the ACM.

Picture a purely circular race track, You have two cars racing around the track,
one on the inside of the track, the other up along the outer wall. Periodically,
the car to the outside of the track pulls down to the inside edge. However, his
tires lose grip and he slides back up to the outer wall again.

In the instance where Lowell was dueling with the Spit XII, both aircraft were
flying in a lufberry. Periodically, Lowell would pinch in, momentarily pulling
lead. However, his P-38 would rapidly scrub off speed and begin to mush,
whereupon he would ease off the elevators and assume his position to the outside
of the Spitfire's turning circle.

This maneuver will only work once or twice, because the Spitfire's smaller
turning radius will eventually prevail. One could certainly pull the nose high
into a yo-yo and cut across the Spit's turn radius, diving into a low yo-yo to
repeat the process. Naturally this assumes that the Spit driver doesn't reverse
out of his lufberry and counter your yo-yo with a rolling scissors. Yet, with
that huge Griffon turning a 5-bladed prop, the Spit XII was loath to roll
against torque (though not as bad as the Mk.XIV) at low speeds. It's difficult
to force an overshoot when it takes forever (relatively speaking) to reverse
direction. Then again, the P-38 was sluggish on the ailerons at low speeds
itself, although a boot full of rudder helps some and will aid in scrubbing
speed. But, either way, the Spitfire has a clean stall speed nearly the same as
the P-38L with the fowlers nearly all the way out.

OK, I've got the picture now. Having not read the original account, I
was trying to visualize based on the postings and my own
super-imposition of what a "cloverleaf" is.

I recall an experience a lot of years ago in trying to teach a bit of
BFM to a couple of friends at Falcon Field outside Mesa AZ. One was an
AF associate, former KC-135 driver and was then a T-37 instructor with
me; the other was a former crop-duster type, then a TWA 707 captain
(and eventually the founder and namesake of Dillon Precision--the
company that makes probably the most famous ammunition reloading
pressses in the world.) These two guys had each bought a Canadian
surplus Harvard (equivalent to a US T-6.)

They were trying to learn how to fly formation and it routinely
degenerated into a rat race with the tanker driver always losing. I
was brought in as the "ringer" to ride with my co-worker and beat
Dillon.

Problem was, when it came to slow speed, low dynamic range fighting,
my jet fighter tactics weren't the answer and Dillon soundly and
repeatedly trounced me.

We'd wind up in a cranking, turning, one-circle fight and Dillon's
crop-duster experience would have him pulling lead into me until he'd
stall, then with deft application of top rudder he'd manage to keep
the nose up for a second longer than I could. I'd drop out of the
stall and he'd ease off to take a bit of lag spacing then pull back
into his lead. Nibble, nibble, nibble and eventually he'd have a good
extended gun solution.

Sound like what you're describing in the Lowell fight.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (ret)
***"When Thunder Rolled:
*** An F-105 Pilot Over N. Vietnam"
*** from Smithsonian Books
ISBN: 1588341038

(and eventually the founder and namesake of Dillon Precision--the
company that makes probably the most famous ammunition reloading
pressses in the world.)

Mike Dillon?
Is he still around?
VL

(MLenoch) wrote:

(and eventually the founder and namesake of Dillon Precision--the
company that makes probably the most famous ammunition reloading
pressses in the world.)

Mike Dillon?
Is he still around?
VL

Yes. The event I relate was around '69 or '70. I'm pretty sure he's
still kicking.

One of the neat things we did at the time was get approval for a piece
on jet undergraduate pilot training for Air Progress magazine. We
carried Mike, who wrote the piece and Nyle Leatham, who photographed
on two T-37 formation flights. Flight one we got formation shots of
the little jet as well as spin photos and a lot of traffic pattern
shots---the local UPT training commandoes were aghast when we started
flying formation traffic patterns for the pictures.

The second flight was a rendezvous with a PT-18 Stearman for a
formation shot of the classically painted bi-plane and the T-37. We
had a tough time getting the Tweet slowed down to fly formation with
the Stearman--finally had to drop gear and flaps, then pull the
spoiler circuit breaker to get the last couple of knots scrubbed off
without stalling.

We finished the sequence with a bootleg photo of the Stearman, my
KC-135 buddy's Havard (T-6) and the Tweet in a three-ship. Wish I had
a copy of that one.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (ret)
***"When Thunder Rolled:
*** An F-105 Pilot Over N. Vietnam"
*** from Smithsonian Books
ISBN: 1588341038

Ed Rasimus wrote:

[snipped for brevity]

We'd wind up in a cranking, turning, one-circle fight and Dillon's
crop-duster experience would have him pulling lead into me until he'd
stall, then with deft application of top rudder he'd manage to keep
the nose up for a second longer than I could. I'd drop out of the
stall and he'd ease off to take a bit of lag spacing then pull back
into his lead. Nibble, nibble, nibble and eventually he'd have a good
extended gun solution.

A former Navy F-4 pilot, fellow trike pilot and good friend emailed
me this story that is very similiar (e.g: application of "top rudder")
that you describe above Ed:

Subject: Marseille ..' A Dead Man Walking ' .. But, Perhaps The ' Best
Dog Fight' Pilot

With the Messerschmitt's left wingtip pointed vertically toward the
water below, the Hurricane fighter stood virtually motionless in front
of a young German's windscreen. Viewed through the metal framed
canopy of the Messerschmitt 109, a British Hurricane with its red
centered cockade was starkly recognizable against the cloudless
North African sky.

Pulling back on the stick, gut-wrenching turn tightening, the young
German's slim body presses firmly into his seat. Underneath his
leather and mesh flight helmet, beads of sweat roll down his face ..
burning his eyes as they remain open and fixed on the Zeiss optical
gun sight.

3 G's .. 3.5 G's .. 4 G's.

The strain increases. Tired and aching at the end of day's mission
that was full of air combat, the young German's arm muscles begin to
fatigue under the strain. But there are no distractions allowed. The
quarry must not escape.

After a swift look inside, with a slight input of right rudder, Jochen
... as he's known by his friends .. corrects the aircraft's slight
skid.

The Messerschmitt emits a tiny shudder as its airspeed rapidly bleeds
off from 300 knots indicated down to 140. Physics now demands the
aircraft's nose to drop as its lift falls away. In apparent defiance
of this law of nature, Jochen applies judicious top rudder and the 109
hangs precariously. Then, there's a metallic ' clang ' as the
Messerschmitt's leading edge slats automatically slam into an
extended position providing more lift.

Like an artist ' working' materials, the 22 year old ' works' his
aircraft as if part of his own body, while sweat pours down his back
... and the shoulder harness bites into his neck .. stinging. These
minor distractions, no longer affect the German ace; he's been there
before. The only thing important is .. one more victory !

Looking behind him, the RAF pilot sees the Messerschmitt now perched
ominously off his left hind quarter .. its propeller spinner slowly
pulling lead .. setting up for the proper firing position. Fear grips
the British pilot as he now realizes this was no rookie enemy behind
him. And every evasive maneuver he'd attempted was flawlessly
countered .. with the young German closing distance with each turn.

As Jochen's Messerschmitt closed in, and the Hurricane disappeared
beneath its nose. Jochen cocked his head slightly to the left as he
calculated where his ordinance and the enemy would coinside. It ..
was .. time !

The control column shook in his right hand from a quick two-second
burst. The cockpit filled with the smell of cordite, as several pounds
of per second of machine gun and cannon projectiles hurtle into the
Hurricane. Intuitively positive his aim had been correct, the German
rolled inverted, diving away.

The 7500 pound British Hurricane, a sheet of flaming metal, thundered
vertically into the Mediterranean...

by Major Robert Tate, USAF [edited and abridged]

-Mike Marron

wrote:

Ed Rasimus wrote:

[snipped for brevity]

We'd wind up in a cranking, turning, one-circle fight and Dillon's
crop-duster experience would have him pulling lead into me until he'd
stall, then with deft application of top rudder he'd manage to keep
the nose up for a second longer than I could. I'd drop out of the
stall and he'd ease off to take a bit of lag spacing then pull back
into his lead. Nibble, nibble, nibble and eventually he'd have a good
extended gun solution.

A former Navy F-4 pilot, fellow trike pilot and good friend emailed
me this story that is very similiar (e.g: application of "top rudder")
that you describe above Ed:

Subject: Marseille ..' A Dead Man Walking ' .. But, Perhaps The ' Best
Dog Fight' Pilot

--remainder of a great story snipped for brevity--

That's beautiful....just f***ing beautiful. It captures the essence
perfectly. Skill, art, terror, dedication. Ahhh, if I could write like
that....


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (ret)
***"When Thunder Rolled:
*** An F-105 Pilot Over N. Vietnam"
*** from Smithsonian Books
ISBN: 1588341038

The second flight was a rendezvous with a PT-18 Stearman ...

Never heard of that one, Ed. How did it differ from the PT-17?

vince norris

Comments:
The P38 got a good deal of prop-induced lift from the wash of both
props at low speeds - max power, of course. And if maneuver flaps were
installed (P38F15 et seq), that was even better for its low-speed
capabilities. A good friend of mine used to call flying on the edge
like that 'milking a mouse'.
Walt BJ

vincent p. norris wrote:

The second flight was a rendezvous with a PT-18 Stearman ...

Never heard of that one, Ed. How did it differ from the PT-17?

vince norris

Suffering a senior moment, my tired and aching mental synapses
cross-referenced my early flying day in the PA-18 Piper Super Cub with
the brief encounter described with a PT-17 Stearman.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (ret)
***"When Thunder Rolled:
*** An F-105 Pilot Over N. Vietnam"
*** from Smithsonian Books
ISBN: 1588341038

PT-18, as was the PT-17, was a Lloyd Stearman designed, Boeing aircraft.

Tex

Can you tell us any more about it, Tex? Did it look more or less like
a PT-17, or was it an entirely new design?

vince norris