Question for the real pilots

Mxsmanic wrote in
:


I have to admit in looking at sectionals that I don't know how pilots
keep track of where they are in relation to these airspaces if they
don't have moving-map GPS or something.

Now there's a surprise.


Bertie

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
m...

Dunno at Dulles, we always got from clearance delivery a "psuedu-IFR"
speak clearance prior to taxi:

5327K cleared into the class B via fly runway heading at or below 1500
feet expect 4,500 ten minutes after departure, departure frequency 125.8,
squawk 4425.


The Dulles SOP requires the Clearance Delivery position to issue the
following to VFR departures:

1) A clearance to depart the Class Bravo airspace.

2) Assign runway heading.

3) An altitude at or below 3,000 feet.

4) The appropriate departure control frequency.



FAAO 7110.65 does not specifically address VFR departures from controlled
airports within a Class B surface area. In the section on Class B service
it states, "VFR aircraft must obtain an ATC clearance to operate in Class B
airspace." That's consistent with FAR 91.131, which states, "The operator
must receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for
that area before operating an aircraft in that area." Well, a takeoff
clearance is an ATC clearance, so if you're cleared for takeoff at an
airport within Class B airspace you've obtained an ATC clearance prior to
operating within Class B airspace.

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...

It's a guess from knowledge gained over the years. Am I close?


Beats me. I've never seen "Class B clearance" defined anywhere. A Google
search on that term suggests there is fairly wide consensus among pilots
that VFR aircraft must obtain a specific clearance to enter Class B
airspace. I assume that is what is meant by "Class B clearance". I do not
know what inspired that idea. FAR 91.131 says only, "The operator
must receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for
that area before operating an aircraft in that area." It does not
distinguish between VFR or IFR operations, why do most pilots believe it
applies only to VFR aircraft?

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...

I was taught that it is important to hear the "cleared into Class B"
phrase before entering Class B, but I wasn't taught how to insure that
it was uttered by ATC aside from explicitly asking if I were so
cleared. Reading FAAO 7111.65 provides a clue to what ATC is
expecting from pilots:

Section 9. Class B Service Area- Terminal

7-9-2. VFR AIRCRAFT IN CLASS B AIRSPACE
a. VFR aircraft must obtain an ATC clearance to
operate in Class B airspace.
REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Operational Requests, Para 2-1-18.
FAAO 7110.65, Airspace Classes, Para 2-4-22.
PHRASEOLOGY-
CLEARED THROUGH/TO ENTER/OUT OF BRAVO
AIRSPACE,



2-1-18. OPERATIONAL REQUESTS
Respond to a request from another controller, a pilot
or vehicle operator by one of the following verbal
means:
a. Restate the request in complete or abbreviated
terms followed by the word "APPROVED." The
phraseology "APPROVED AS REQUESTED" may
be substituted in lieu of a lengthy readback.
PHRASEOLOGY-
(Requested operation) APPROVED.
or
APPROVED AS REQUESTED.
b. State restrictions followed by the word
"APPROVED."
PHRASEOLOGY-
(Restriction and/or additional instructions, requested
operation) APPROVED.
c. State the word "UNABLE" and, time permitting,
a reason.
PHRASEOLOGY-
UNABLE (requested operation).
and when necessary,
(reason and/or additional instructions.)
d. State the words "STAND BY."
NOTE-
"STAND BY" is not an approval or denial. The controller
acknowledges the request and will respond at a later time.
REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Traffic Advisories, Para 2-1-21.
FAAO 7110.65, Route or Altitude Amendments, Para 4-2-5.
FAAO 7110.65, Methods, Para 7-9-3.


So when handed off by approach control to the Class B controller, it's
best to say, "Cessna 1234 request transit through bravo airspace,"
rather than, "Cessna 1234 with you," and hoping to hear the controller
explicitly issue the bravo clearance. This technique does at least
two things:

1. It alerts the controller to the fact that you are not yet
cleared into bravo airspace, perhaps unlike much of the other
traffic s/he is handling.

2. It clearly places the onus on the controller to comply with
FAAO 7110.65 paragraph 2-1-18, thus insuring that the
controller will be unlikely to file a Form 8020-17
Preliminary Pilot Deviation Report, because it's not in
his/her best self-interest.

So the technique of _explicitly_ requesting clearance through bravo
airspace on initial radio contact with the Class B controller should
be taught by CFIs.


For all operations, or just VFR operations?

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...

It would seem that FAAO 7110.65 2-1-16 b might apply in this case:


http://www.faa.gov/regulations_polic...a/7110.65R.pdf
2-1-16. SURFACE AREAS
a. Coordinate with the appropriate nonapproach
control tower on an individual aircraft basis before
issuing a clearance which would require flight within
a surface area for which the tower has responsibility
unless otherwise specified in a letter of agreement.

b. Coordinate with the appropriate control tower
for transit authorization when you are providing radar
traffic advisory service to an aircraft that will enter
another facility's airspace.
NOTE-
The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own
authorization through each area when in contact with a
radar facility.

c. Transfer communications to the appropriate
facility, if required, prior to operation within a surface
area for which the tower has responsibility.


What part of this case might that apply to?

On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 14:15:18 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote in
. net:


"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
.. .

It would seem that FAAO 7110.65 2-1-16 b might apply in this case:


http://www.faa.gov/regulations_polic...a/7110.65R.pdf
2-1-16. SURFACE AREAS
a. Coordinate with the appropriate nonapproach
control tower on an individual aircraft basis before
issuing a clearance which would require flight within
a surface area for which the tower has responsibility
unless otherwise specified in a letter of agreement.

b. Coordinate with the appropriate control tower
for transit authorization when you are providing radar
traffic advisory service to an aircraft that will enter
another facility's airspace.
NOTE-
The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own
authorization through each area when in contact with a
radar facility.

c. Transfer communications to the appropriate
facility, if required, prior to operation within a surface
area for which the tower has responsibility.


What part of this case might that apply to?


I was thinking that 2-1-16 (b) might apply, as the OP was receiving
Radar Traffic Advisory Service at the time; but I'm unfamiliar with
the airspace in question, so it's difficult to be certain.

On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 13:53:06 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote in
. net:


"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
.. .

It's a guess from knowledge gained over the years. Am I close?


Beats me. I've never seen "Class B clearance" defined anywhere. A Google
search on that term suggests there is fairly wide consensus among pilots
that VFR aircraft must obtain a specific clearance to enter Class B
airspace. I assume that is what is meant by "Class B clearance". I do not
know what inspired that idea. FAR 91.131 says only, "The operator
must receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for
that area before operating an aircraft in that area." It does not
distinguish between VFR or IFR operations, why do most pilots believe it
applies only to VFR aircraft?


I can't speak for those pilots whom your research disclosed, but it is
clear to me, that regulations mandate that all operators of aircraft
within Class B airspace must have received ATC clearance, either
explicitly or implied, prior to entering.

With your experience as an ATC controller, are you able to think of a
situation in which an ATC clearance into B airspace might be implied
rather than explicit?

"Jose" wrote in message
t...

Then it's irrelevant. We're talking about VFR aircraft entering the Bravo
on an "implied" clearance.


How was this discussion limited to VFR aircraft?



Yes. Bravo goes to the surface at the primary airport (and maybe some
surrounding fields)


All surface areas go to the surface everywhere within the lateral limits of
the surface area. I have always felt that only airborne operations needed
to be concerned about airspace. Upon what do you base your assertion that
operations conducted solely on the surface are also affected by the class of
the overlying airspace?



Interesting question. I presume that class B clearance is only required
for =flight=, at any altitude, including two inches. If I am correct, you
would not need a clearance to taxi at an uncontrolled airport in the Bravo
surface area (*), but you =would= need a clearance to hover-taxi a
helicopter under the same circumstances.


I presumed the same, but in your last message you said a VFR aircraft
operating on the surface at Love Field, not in flight, was already in Class
B airspace.

On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 14:00:35 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote in
. net:

So when handed off by approach control to the Class B controller, it's
best to say, "Cessna 1234 request transit through bravo airspace,"
rather than, "Cessna 1234 with you," and hoping to hear the controller
explicitly issue the bravo clearance. This technique does at least
two things:

1. It alerts the controller to the fact that you are not yet
cleared into bravo airspace, perhaps unlike much of the other
traffic s/he is handling.

2. It clearly places the onus on the controller to comply with
FAAO 7110.65 paragraph 2-1-18, thus insuring that the
controller will be unlikely to file a Form 8020-17
Preliminary Pilot Deviation Report, because it's not in
his/her best self-interest.

So the technique of _explicitly_ requesting clearance through bravo
airspace on initial radio contact with the Class B controller should
be taught by CFIs.


For all operations, or just VFR operations?

I'm sorry. I was referring to VFR operations.

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...

I'm sorry. I was referring to VFR operations.


Why do you exclude IFR operations?