PW-6U by Jezow being delivered

I must disagree, respectably, with your opinion Mark.

You wont find a 2-33 in a German club, you will find new shiny ships and LOTS of new pilots. Do you get that in the US? Now, are memberships rising or falling in the US? And in Germany? Ahhhhh, see a link?

I used to say "how can we afford that?" as well, until some wit pointed out that we couldnt afford NOT to go with expensive gliders.
Build it and they will come.
Mr Daniels is right on the money, youngsters now have a new phone every 2 years, a new car every 3 years, a mortgage no-one can really afford, 3 ipods, a PDA, $250 sunglasses and a wardrobe of jeans the cost of which would support a small african country.

Do you honestly think they will be enticed into gliding if offered an antique 2-33?

New Pooch, PW-6, ASK or whichever, they will all be better than a tin or fabric floater for the bling factor alone.



Bagger

When buying new, what lead you to get a second DG-1000 rather than
diversifying by getting a Duo Discus?




Jeremy Zawodny wrote:
Marc Ramsey wrote:
Bay Area Soaring Associates here in the SF Bay area has managed to get
on DG-1000 in their fleet, and has a second one on order. Any members
care to comment on how you all managed to handle the finances?

We financed the first DG-1000 by selling off a Grob 103, using some of
our "new glider fund" savings, and largely by borrowing money from members.

We managed to pay the loans off faster than expected (having the ship
helped us get some members, I'm sure), so we have the second one on
order. Sadly, the Euro vs. Dollar makes the second one quite a bit more
expensive than the first, which we bought from Charlie Hayes.

Someday we need to replace our other Grob 103. Ideally, we'd get an
ASK-21, but they're REALLY hard to find used and nearly the same cost as
a DG-505 when bought new.

It'll be interesting to see where we end up...

Jeremy (a BASA member)

bagmaker wrote:
I must disagree, respectably, with your opinion Mark.

You wont find a 2-33 in a German club, you will find new shiny ships
and LOTS of new pilots. Do you get that in the US? Now, are memberships
rising or falling in the US? And in Germany? Ahhhhh, see a link?

Are memberships really rising in Germany? Do you have numbers? If they
are, that would be different from the trend worldwide.

Do you suppose the use of low-cost winch launches might explain a lot of
the difference, along with the much higher cost of powered flight, and
*very* easy access to glider operations because the country is so compact?

So, at the moment, I don't see the link, because these other differences
seem important. In our club, it wasn't the lack of "bling" (we had an
old Blanik) that kept our membership down, it was the lack of
instructors and towpilots. If we had enough of those, we could have
easily doubled our membership and been able to afford the fiberglass two
seater.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

On Aug 15, 5:48 am, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Are memberships really rising in Germany? Do you have numbers? If they
are, that would be different from the trend worldwide.

I do have numbers, thanks to John Roake, and membership in Germany is
actually collapsing faster than anywhere in the world - (32,229
members in 2006 vs 37,624 in 1996, continuous decline). I have no idea
why (does anyone else know?).

Low-cost winching obviously makes gliding much more affordable. I'm
still not aero-tow solo as there simply isn't any point. I get to 75%
the height of an standard aerotow on the winch and never fail to "get
away" - so why pay five times as much to be slowly dragged into the
sky by an expensive and noisy power plane (which I'm sure the airfield
neighbours love)? But if you don't have a winch, it's not just a case
of getting one and using it - very thorough flight training is needed
to use it safely, and I'm not sure how a club that lacks that
expertise could just go and get it.

Eric also mentions a lack of instructors. That's a critical problem in
many clubs, as active instructor numbers seems to be dropping faster
than membership overall. One of the many points a club may need to put
in order before it considers a marketing blitz - what are _you_ doing
to train and retain new instructors?

Quickly RE DG1000 vs Duo - a club near me has also bought a second
DG1000 rather than a Duo too. Why? Because the DG1000 is a far better
ship. Unlike the Duo it is suitable for pre-solo training to
comfortably out-running Duos on XC. It's a stronger glider with a far
better design (people may laugh at the enormous landing gear but wait
until a pupil gives you a heavy landing, or the glider lands out in
crop. Then you'll know why DG designed it). I wouldn't bother
replacing a G103 though. If it's tatty get it done up for a tiny
fraction of the cost of a new aircraft. It's still a 1:33 glider and
tough as nails.

I personally believe modern GRP trainers may well be worth it.
Membership costs seem to be surprisingly inelastic, and I suspect many
potential members would rather payer somewhat higher fees in return
for *far* better gliders. Cheap isn't always best. That said I think
the K13 is the perfect trainer and if I ran a club with a fleet of
those, I'd just repaint them and keep them, then add a K21 or G103 for
XC training (consider that a mid-performance glider may be preferable
for early XC training, as it's unlikely that your new early XC pilots
will have access to gliders with any better performance!).


Dan

On Aug 15, 9:29 am, Dan G wrote:
That said I think
the K13 is the perfect trainer and if I ran a club with a fleet of
those, I'd just repaint them and keep them, then add a K21 or G103 for
XC training

....and if you do add an expensive high-performance glider, set your
per-minute flying fees to be identical for all gliders - from your Duo
or DG to you 13s or 33s. Why? Because I've just remembered that my own
club, which happens to have exactly the fleet I've outlined above
(three K13s and a K21), also has a brand new Duo X on long-term loan,
which I'd forgotten about. AFAIK it's flown once(!!!) this year, and
that was only by a visiting pilot - the per-minute charge is more than
double than the other four two-place gliders. No-one I've spoken to
has the slightest interest in flying it at that cost so it just sits
there.

The club I mentioned that has just bought a second DG1000 charges the
same fee for their 13s, 21s and the two 1000s. Guess what? The DG1000s
are a regular sight in the skies all around the local area and beyond,
as they are used daily. In fact they're often first out of the hangar,
make a tremendous impression on trial flight folks (if you've ever
flown in the front seat of a DG, you'll know why - the vast view is
stunning!) and more often than not they go XC, exactly what they were
designed for. Bizarrely, that club is now actually investigating
changing the pricing structure, even though they originally introduced
the flat rate for exactly the reasons I've given, and are not
struggling to pay the loans on the new gliders. I hope they see sense!


Dan

On Aug 14, 2:55 pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
"Marc Ramsey" wrote in message

...

Charles Yeates wrote:
http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/yeatesc/world.html

Gee, only about US $90K delivered. I'm not complaining, it's probably a
bargain compared to a new K-21 or DG-505. I just find it amusing that
some wonder why a lot a clubs stick with their 2-33s...

Marc

2-33's are cheap. Shooting yourself in the foot is also cheap. 2-33's are
cheap for a very good reason - they're terrible gliders.

2-33's have done untold damage to American soaring. Since 2-33's were
introduced as many as a hundred thousand potential glider pilots have walked
away because they were introduced to the sport with a ride in a 2-33. In
the long run, THAT was expensive.

When 2-33's were introduced in the late 1960's they cost $25,000. In todays
Dollars, that's $145,000. by comparison, the PW-6U is a screaming bargan.

Bill Daniels


Bill obviously lives in a different world of gliding than we do in my
club.
Our gliders have to live outside because we don't have a hanger.
Our 2-33's are busy all day most days while the '21 flies much less.
Almost 1/4 of our membership are juniors who could never afford to fly
if we had to support $100,000 2 seaters.
People love to ride in our 2-33's. One out of 4 rides turns into an
introductory training package. Doen't sound like we are scaring them
off.
The missing point is that it is not what you fly- it is that you fly.
There is room in our sport for many approaches without putting down
the other guy.
A little research would show the 2-33 was introduced in about 1972 and
likely is only second in our active fleet to 1-26's.
I think they have served us well.
UH

On 15 Aug, 09:29, Dan G wrote:

I personally believe modern GRP trainers may well be worth it.

I used to fly at Border GC in Northumberland. When I started there,
twelve years ago, they had two Bocians, a Pirat and 75 members. Now
they have a K21, an Alliance, a Grob Acro, a Club Astir, a Pirat ...
and 180+ members.

However, I think it would be too simplistic to say that the gliders
have brought the members. It's just as true that the members have paid
for the gliders ... moving from a 37 acre airfield to a 200 acre one
has probably helped too!

Now I fly from a club with a Ka-2, various private single seaters ...
and 8 members.

Ian

On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 04:48:50 GMT, Eric Greenwell
wrote:


Are memberships really rising in Germany? Do you have numbers? If they
are, that would be different from the trend worldwide.

They are not (although there are exceptions - membership in my club is
rising steadily and has increased 30% from 1986 when I started
gliding) - but the average age of a German glider pilot is *young* -
you see many, many young, motivated pilots on German (or, rather,
European) airfields who can only affored gliding due to the very low
costs compared to the US.


Do you suppose the use of low-cost winch launches might explain a lot of
the difference, along with the much higher cost of powered flight, and
*very* easy access to glider operations because the country is so compact?

It's definitely the winch launch.


Bye
Andreas

wrote in message
ups.com...
On Aug 14, 2:55 pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
"Marc Ramsey" wrote in message

...

Charles Yeates wrote:
http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/yeatesc/world.html

Gee, only about US $90K delivered. I'm not complaining, it's probably
a
bargain compared to a new K-21 or DG-505. I just find it amusing that
some wonder why a lot a clubs stick with their 2-33s...

Marc

2-33's are cheap. Shooting yourself in the foot is also cheap. 2-33's
are
cheap for a very good reason - they're terrible gliders.

2-33's have done untold damage to American soaring. Since 2-33's were
introduced as many as a hundred thousand potential glider pilots have
walked
away because they were introduced to the sport with a ride in a 2-33. In
the long run, THAT was expensive.

When 2-33's were introduced in the late 1960's they cost $25,000. In
todays
Dollars, that's $145,000. by comparison, the PW-6U is a screaming
bargan.

Bill Daniels


Bill obviously lives in a different world of gliding than we do in my
club.
Our gliders have to live outside because we don't have a hanger.
Our 2-33's are busy all day most days while the '21 flies much less.
Almost 1/4 of our membership are juniors who could never afford to fly
if we had to support $100,000 2 seaters.
People love to ride in our 2-33's. One out of 4 rides turns into an
introductory training package. Doen't sound like we are scaring them
off.
The missing point is that it is not what you fly- it is that you fly.
There is room in our sport for many approaches without putting down
the other guy.
A little research would show the 2-33 was introduced in about 1972 and
likely is only second in our active fleet to 1-26's.
I think they have served us well.
UH

I think it's you who's living in the past. I also don't think you are
supporting youth. I think you have conned a bunch of people into
suppoprting a tow plane. The 2-33 excells at that - it falls out of the sky
so it needs a lot of tows. BTW, can't you use your real name?

BTW, the first customer 2-33 I saw was in use in 1967 in Southern
California. My logbook shows I instructed in them in 1970 so your 1972 date
is bogus.

Bill Daniels

"Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote in message
:


I think it's you who's living in the past. I also don't think you are
supporting youth. I think you have conned a bunch of people into
suppoprting a tow plane. The 2-33 excells at that - it falls out of the sky
so it needs a lot of tows. BTW, can't you use your real name?

snip

Bill Daniels




Oh, my, Mr. Daniels! Are you ever in for a walloping! Before this is
over, I bet you will wish you had just slapped your grandmother instead
of posting this!



I am going to just sit back and watch!!!!



Larry

01 "zero one"