Fatal accident in Scotland

On 4 Sep, 10:37, Andreas Maurer wrote:

Why not simply keep the left hand *very* close to the release handle
as suggested by standard operating procedure?

We used to have a system in the UK which ensured this: the pilot waved
one finger for "take up slack" and two for "all out". Thus the launch
didn't start until the signaller was assured that the pilot had a hand
free. Now the launch starts when the signaller feels like it, and s/he
just has to hope that the pilot has a hand near the release, and not
scratching himself, adjusting the altimeter, twiddling with the GPS -
or actually on the release, ready for an unwanted pull off when the
wheel hits a bump.

I'm sure it will change back in due course.

Ian

Hi Ian,

Ian schrieb:
We used to have a system in the UK which ensured this: the pilot waved
one finger for "take up slack" and two for "all out". Thus the launch
didn't start until the signaller was assured that the pilot had a hand
free. Now the launch starts when the signaller feels like it, and s/he
just has to hope that the pilot has a hand near the release, and not
scratching himself, adjusting the altimeter, twiddling with the GPS -
or actually on the release, ready for an unwanted pull off when the
wheel hits a bump.

I am sure that i would NOT want to signal a final "go" in a Discus or Mini-Nimbus.
The release handle is down at the bottom of the stick. With long trousers you
can have trouble grabbing it fast.
I made it a habit to put two fingers over it before launching (both winch and
aero-tow). That way i wont pull it inadvertendly (fingers are stretched out,
not really gripping the handle) but i am still able to release fast without
searching for the damn knob.

CU and happy landings,
Markus

This is mostly an attempt to rename a thread which
now has NO connection whatsoever with 925's crash on
Sunday.

As I understand it, the British system was changed
after accidents where pilots accepted a cable without
being ready to go and were winched off as a result
of, for example, scratching their noses. We can now
drill into pupils that you don't accept a cable until
you are ready to launch and your hand stays near the
release until the end of the launch, which will proceed
without any further pilot to launch marshal communication
being required.

It's a system which works well. If the pilot, for any
reason, wants to abort the launch they can pull the
release and shout 'stop'. The worst that can happen
in that case is the launch marshal fails to notice
and the cable has to be pulled back out.

At 14:42 04 September 2007, Markus Gayda wrote:
Hi Ian,

Ian schrieb:
We used to have a system in the UK which ensured this:
the pilot waved
one finger for 'take up slack' and two for 'all out'.
Thus the launch
didn't start until the signaller was assured that
the pilot had a hand
free. Now the launch starts when the signaller feels
like it, and s/he
just has to hope that the pilot has a hand near the
release, and not
scratching himself, adjusting the altimeter, twiddling
with the GPS -
or actually on the release, ready for an unwanted
pull off when the
wheel hits a bump.

I am sure that i would NOT want to signal a final 'go'
in a Discus or Mini-Nimbus.
The release handle is down at the bottom of the stick.
With long trousers you
can have trouble grabbing it fast.
I made it a habit to put two fingers over it before
launching (both winch and
aero-tow). That way i wont pull it inadvertendly (fingers
are stretched out,
not really gripping the handle) but i am still able
to release fast without
searching for the damn knob.

CU and happy landings,
Markus

The system of winch launch signalling, in the UK, was
changed so that pilots had their fingers close to the
release on take-off; not sticking two fingers up in
the air. You are not meant to accept the cable until
you are ready to launch, all fiddling complete; you
accept the cable you are ready to go.

At 14:00 04 September 2007, Ian wrote:

We used to have a system in the UK which ensured this:
the pilot waved
one finger for 'take up slack' and two for 'all out'.
Thus the launch
didn't start until the signaller was assured that the
pilot had a hand
free. Now the launch starts when the signaller feels
like it, and s/he
just has to hope that the pilot has a hand near the
release, and not
scratching himself, adjusting the altimeter, twiddling
with the GPS -
or actually on the release, ready for an unwanted pull
off when the
wheel hits a bump.

I'm sure it will change back in due course.

Ian

On 4 Sep, 15:59, Andrew Warbrick
wrote:
This is mostly an attempt to rename a thread which
now has NO connection whatsoever with 925's crash on
Sunday.

As I understand it, the British system was changed
after accidents where pilots accepted a cable without
being ready to go and were winched off as a result
of, for example, scratching their noses.


That was the claim. In reality, I think it was changed because Lasham
had a new CFI who wanted to make an impact on the gliding scene.

I'm all in favour of changing systems from time to time. When people
have to think about what they are doing they are less likely to make
accidents from unwarranted assumptions. I still don't like losing that
degree of control of the launch, though.

Ian

On 4 Sep, 16:02, Mark Dickson
wrote:
The system of winch launch signalling, in the UK, was
changed so that pilots had their fingers close to the
release on take-off; not sticking two fingers up in
the air. You are not meant to accept the cable until
you are ready to launch, all fiddling complete; you
accept the cable you are ready to go.

Not meant to, no. However, I think there is another side: the cable
should not be offered to the glider unless the launch can proceed
immediately. All too often the cable is attached, then there is a
short delay, then the deay gets longer, then the pilot gets
distracted, then ...

The old system ensured that when the launch started, the pilot had a
had free. It may not have been in the right place, but at least it was
guaranteed not to be reprogramming a GPS ...

Ian

On Sep 4, 2:56 pm, Ian wrote:
On 4 Sep, 10:37, Andreas Maurer wrote:

Why not simply keep the left hand *very* close to the release handle
as suggested by standard operating procedure?

We used to have a system in the UK which ensured this: the pilot waved
one finger for "take up slack" and two for "all out". Thus the launch
didn't start until the signaller was assured that the pilot had a hand
free. Now the launch starts when the signaller feels like it, and s/he
just has to hope that the pilot has a hand near the release, and not
scratching himself, adjusting the altimeter, twiddling with the GPS -
or actually on the release, ready for an unwanted pull off when the
wheel hits a bump.

We now have a system in which the pilot decides when to hand control
over to the launch point, by asking for the cable to be attached. He/
she shouldn't do that until the are absolutely ready to launch. When
launching I don't have a free hand, as one is on the stick and the
other is holding or touching the yellow knob. I wouldn't want to take
my hand off that yellow knob (especially in the Discus) as if I need
it in a hurry I can be sure I'll have trouble finding it. The one
time I've had to pull off I was glad all I had to do was do it, rather
than struggle to find the knob in a new type of glider.

So, personally, I hope we stick with the current system.

I learnt to glide after the new system was introduced.
I have two hands and at the start of a winch launch I want one hand on the =
release and the other on the joystick, so I have no free hand for signallin=
g (at the all out stage)
=20
I am happy either for someone external to signal, or as at happened when I =
winched recently in France, to use the radio. I can also understand the use=
of a wings level signal (for up slack), but this does not work when you ha=
ve a glider full of water, which needs level wings prior to the start.
Rory
Newsgroup: rec.aviation.soaringSubject: Winch launch procedure and acci=
dentsAuthor: Ian Date/Time: 15:20 04 September 2=
007

As I understand it, the British system was changed after accidents wher=
e pilots accepted a cable without being ready to go and were winched off a=
s a result of, for example, scratching their noses.
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The next generation of MSN Hotmail has arrived - Windows Live Hotmail
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On 4 Sep, 17:31, Rory O'Conor
wrote:
I learnt to glide after the new system was introduced.
I have two hands and at the start of a winch launch I want one hand on the =
release and the other on the joystick,

"On" the release? Eeek. People have had nasty accidents that way!

Ian

Depends on your definition of 'on'. I have my fingers
'on' the release at the start of a winch lauch. By
that I mean that I rest two straight fingers on the
top of the release knob, either side of the cable.
What I don't do is curl my fingers round it unless
I need to pull it.

At 19:01 04 September 2007, Ian wrote:
On 4 Sep, 17:31, Rory O'Conor
wrote:
I learnt to glide after the new system was introduced.
I have two hands and at the start of a winch launch
I want one hand on the =
release and the other on the joystick,

'On' the release? Eeek. People have had nasty accidents
that way!

Ian