Fatal accident in Scotland

FYI, quote from the BGA "SUPPLEMENT TO BGA ‘SAFE WINCH LAUNCHING’ LEAFLET" notes
for instructors:

"If the wing drops on the ground the glider may rotate about the wing tip and
cartwheel. If the wing drops in every hundredth launch, there will be one wing
drop accident in 800 wing drop incidents. This is a recipe for complacency and
indeed it is experienced pilots who have the majority of wing drop accidents.
After the wing has dropped the cartwheel can be so rapid that no recovery by
releasing or other means is possible. This hazard must be anticipated and
pre-empted by conducting the launch with the left hand on the release, and
releasing immediately if it is not possible to keep the wings level.




Andrew Warbrick wrote:
Depends on your definition of 'on'. I have my fingers
'on' the release at the start of a winch lauch. By
that I mean that I rest two straight fingers on the
top of the release knob, either side of the cable.
What I don't do is curl my fingers round it unless
I need to pull it.

At 19:01 04 September 2007, Ian wrote:
On 4 Sep, 17:31, Rory O'Conor
wrote:
I learnt to glide after the new system was introduced.
I have two hands and at the start of a winch launch
I want one hand on the =
release and the other on the joystick,
'On' the release? Eeek. People have had nasty accidents
that way!

Ian

On Sep 4, 10:55 pm, ucsdcpc wrote:
FYI, quote from the BGA "SUPPLEMENT TO BGA 'SAFE WINCH LAUNCHING' LEAFLET" notes
for instructors:

"If the wing drops on the ground the glider may rotate about the wing tip and
cartwheel. If the wing drops in every hundredth launch, there will be one wing
drop accident in 800 wing drop incidents. This is a recipe for complacency and
indeed it is experienced pilots who have the majority of wing drop accidents.
After the wing has dropped the cartwheel can be so rapid that no recovery by
releasing or other means is possible. This hazard must be anticipated and
pre-empted by conducting the launch with the left hand on the release, and
releasing immediately if it is not possible to keep the wings level.


A timely quote. Please heed.

I don't quite understand some of the discussion here. Things are very
simple.

You do not attach a cable to the glider until it is ready to fly. All
checks complete, nothing left to do. (If you're still fiddling with
the GPS at this point you're an idiot.) Then, "cable on please". You
have one hand on the stick and the other holds the release. You will
not have time to go feeling for the release if you need it. There is
no way any launch could be violent enough that you'd pull the release
accidently. Think about how hard you need to pull to operate the
release, then try to imagine how a launch could be so rough that your
arm could be moved enough to generate that same force against your
will. Not going to happen.

If, for any reason, you are no longer happy with proceeding with the
launch while waiting for it to commence you pull the release.

If a wing touches the ground you release instantly. I've seen four
ground loops in the last month, each one because the pilot thought the
glider would recover. Sometimes it will, sometime it won't. What the
hell is the point in gambling on that? It takes all of a minute to
reposition the glider and tug or winch cable.

It's hard to see how you could screw up if you follow these simple
procedures. I don't give a toss who invented them or why - they're
safe, and that's all that matters to me.


Dan

On 5 Sep, 01:31, Dan G wrote:

You do not attach a cable to the glider until it is ready to fly. All
checks complete, nothing left to do. (If you're still fiddling with
the GPS at this point you're an idiot.) Then, "cable on please".

Which is fine in an ideal world. But it doesn't always work like that.
Sometimes there are delays, and a safe system will take account of
that possibility.

You
have one hand on the stick and the other holds the release. You will
not have time to go feeling for the release if you need it. There is
no way any launch could be violent enough that you'd pull the release
accidently.

Perhaps you always fly from nice, smooth, paved runways?

It's hard to see how you could screw up if you follow these simple
procedures. I don't give a toss who invented them or why - they're
safe, and that's all that matters to me.

It's when people start thinking that the rules will keep them safe
that accidents happen.

Ian

Ian

Yes, ON the release.
a) the BGA guidance quoted by others.
b) my SLMG has a grey, differently shaped, manual prop
brake lever next to the cable release. The former lever
is not useful during a wing drop.

I do take my hand off the release towards the end of
the ground run.

Please could you expand as to what nasty accident might
result due to me having my hand ON the release at the
beginning of the ground run.

Thanks

Rory

At 19:01 04 September 2007, Ian wrote:
On 4 Sep, 17:31, Rory O'Conor
wrote:
I learnt to glide after the new system was introduced.
I have two hands and at the start of a winch launch
I want one hand on the =
release and the other on the joystick,

'On' the release? Eeek. People have had nasty accidents
that way!

Ian

On Sep 5, 8:03 am, Ian wrote:
On 5 Sep, 01:31, Dan G wrote:

You do not attach a cable to the glider until it is ready to fly. All
checks complete, nothing left to do.

Yes, precisely. I don't see any problems with that. I'll go further
and
state that I would need to be convinced that anything else was safer.

Which is fine in an ideal world. But it doesn't always work like that.
Sometimes there are delays, and a safe system will take account of
that possibility.

Er, what's the problem with releasing the cable if there's a delay?
In what way isn't that a "safe system"?


You
have one hand on the stick and the other holds the release. You will
not have time to go feeling for the release if you need it.

That's my opinion, too. As an early solo neophyte who recently
experienced
my first low-level winch failure, heads down while groping for the
cable
release would have been too high a workload. In addition, there is a
significant chance I would have grabbed the airbrake instead of the
release.


It's hard to see how you could screw up if you follow these simple
procedures. I don't give a toss who invented them or why - they're
safe, and that's all that matters to me.

I'm interested in
1) if I follow those standard rules, what are the remaining
potential
problems and avoidance procedures

2) what's the relative probability and severity of problems with/
without
hand on the release

I suspect the (2) is the reason for the BGA selecting the current
rules.

The onus is firmly on anybody challenging the current rules to
convince others that the rules should be changed.


It's when people start thinking that the rules will keep them safe
that accidents happen.

True, but of course that has only tangential relevance to whether
or not the rules are good.

"Dan G" wrote in message
ups.com...
You
have one hand on the stick and the other holds the release. You will
not have time to go feeling for the release if you need it.

I am trying to think back, but with most (if not all) gliders I have flown
this would not be practical because of the dash-mounted position of the release
knob. I was taught that my left hand went behind (not on) the spoiler handle to
guard it closed. Here it can prevent another type of launch accident and still
be very close to the release knob.

There is no way any launch could be violent enough that you'd pull the release
accidently.

I have had some pretty violent launches. Things get bumpy when you are
rolling over grass on a single wheel at near-takeoff speeds.

Vaughn

Dan G wrote:

There is no way any launch could be violent enough that you'd
pull the release accidently.

You've obviously never been winch launched in a Junior. Forget to really
(I mean, *really*) thighten the harness, and you will slide back and
barely be able to push the stick forward. Ok, pilot's mistake, but I
would hate to inadvertently push the release at this point, which would
inevitably happen if I had grapped it.

Ian and Vaughn, I fly from a *very* bumpy all-grass airfield. Several
power planes have lost their noseleg there, and someone once broke a
suspension arm on a 4x4 driving across it too fast. It's worth noting
that with a Tost hook you need to pull the release further on the
ground run than in the full climb to release the cable under tension
(and we're talking ~500 daN, not the little tug people give during
release checks). It's just not possible that you could pull the
release by accident.

(There's also been an incident where the pilot pulled the release but
his gloved hand slipped off the ball-shaped handle. You need a grip of
sufficient strength that when you pull the release, it will move. T-
handle releases are far better in this respect.)

Vaughn, I've not flown with a release mounted on the top of the dash,
but I've launched people flying gliders with such a release and they
always have their hand on it.

Vaughn and John, that's why you do pre-flight checks. I know some
people stop bothering once solo as this year I saw a Ka6 lose its
canopy and indeed an Astir launch with airbrakes open. "Airbrakes
symmetrical, closed, and locked."

There was a crash in 2005 where a possible cause was the pilot failing
to tighten his straps and then not being able to reach the stick:

http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/cms_resou...0No%20656).pdf


Dan

bagmaker wrote:
Has anyone used such a temporary strut system for winching?

I wouldn't like that: you need the wings level, which would require a
very long support.

....snippage....

I have long been considering a flexible strut (think Falke) inbuilt to
the winglet/trailing edge of new gliders (mainly SLMGs) to assist in
lone take-offs.

This strut would rotate electrically with the landing gear actuation
and although limited to the height of the winglet, would keep the tip
well off the ground during landing and takeoff.
I offered the idea to Jonkers in full but got no reply- would anyone
else like to run with it?

Why limit it to the winglet height? Let it trail - it may not look
pretty but it could be longer, would be low drag and does not need the
TE to be thickened.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

John Smith wrote:

You've obviously never been winch launched in a Junior.

When I fly a Junior I have my elbow on the canopy rail to support my arm
and my straight fingers resting on top of the release "T" knob. This way
curling my fingers and a slight pull gives an instant release but jolts
(we have a grass field) can't cause an unintended release. For those
unfamiliar with the Junior, the release knob is right at the top of the
panel immediately under the cowl and projects straight back on a stiff
cable that prevents it flopping down.

The same approach works well in my Libelle, but this time my forearm is
on my thigh.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |