What GA needs

Zaroc Stone wrote:

You were doing fine until the last item. 2-3X the price of a luxury
car? Would this be $150,000? You just priced the majority of people
out of the market. I've owned 2 airplanes (not at once) hold a
Commercial, Instrument and Multi engine ratings. After 4000+ hours, I
had to give it up. I can't afford aviation any more than I can afford
a boat. I make more than a lot of people do, but not enough.


You can't afford a boat? What the hell is there to afford there? I
bought my brothers boat this spring. Ten year old Bayliner 20 foot
speedboat we use for skiing, cruising the Bighorn Canyon, etc. After
the initial outlay of $8000 it costs virtually nothing to own. 32
gallons of gas lasts a weekend.

"Newps" wrote

You can't afford a boat? What the hell is there to afford there? I
bought my brothers boat this spring. Ten year old Bayliner 20 foot
speedboat we use for skiing, cruising the Bighorn Canyon, etc. After the
initial outlay of $8000 it costs virtually nothing to own. 32 gallons of
gas lasts a weekend.

Wait until the outdrive craps out, or some other major engine problem
surfaces.

Boat stands for "break out another thousand."
--
Jim in NC

On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 15:21:05 GMT, "Mike Isaksen"
wrote:


"Zaroc Stone" ...
You were doing fine until the last item. 2-3X the price of a luxury
car? Would this be $150,000? You just priced the majority of people
out of the market. I've owned 2 airplanes (not at once) hold a
Commercial, Instrument and Multi engine ratings. After 4000+ hours, I
had to give it up. I can't afford aviation any more than I can afford
a boat. I make more than a lot of people do, but not enough.

I've seen a lot of pilots who stop flying "cold turkey". The common first
reason given was money, but asking more questions revealed they were more
concerned about their skill degradation and the perceived value. Most of
these guys had some hard IMC in their past with the acquired skill and
equipment to match. Most viewed it as a challenge, like a mountain to climb.
Now they've "been there done that", with the nagging knowledge that their
skills have atrophied and it's costing them $400 to go up for an hour.

Side note: You're probably rolling your eyes about that $400 number. But
remember you are probably not that owner of a 30yo hi-perf airplane that has
gotten a total of 25 hrs over the last two years, with bladders, an
intermittent avionics problem, and a new Garmin " just because it would get
you interested again".

It is very hard to get these guys to give up on the Hard IMC paradigm and
get back into less complex airplanes. Their main excuse is always Speed.
Sometimes I'm successful and get them into a club; sometimes they just walk
away with their memories.

My experience of the typical flying club member: 10 to 20 hours per year,
about $100 per hour with no sales tax, and a general low whine about
availability without any actual example of when he couldn't get a plane.
That really is flying heaven for most.

Everyone's situation is a bit different. I sold a 1967 Mooney S-21. I
delivered it to the buyer and had someone pick me up in a car to get
home. The next time I would fly was when my wife bought me an hour in
a Cessna 172 with an instructor of course. We flew from Centennial to
Colorado Springs for a brunch and then home. He had me do the flying
and it had been 20 years. The only thing he had to tell me was that
it might be a good idea to slow down, I was still at cruise when I
turned final. The mechanics were still there, it is like riding a
bike. Both landings were perfect.

When I was active, we used the airplane for cross country flights.
We've been across the US a dozen or more times. Relatives are in
Sandpoint, Idaho, Great Falls, Montana and near Teterboro, N.J. A
flight club probably wouldn't work because of the down time away from
base. I used to fly 3 - 5 times a week. I was as proficient as
possible. Everytime the weather went IFR, I was up there doing
practice approaches, no auto-pilot except the Mooney
wing-leveler. I could safely go 3 hours on the panel then I needed
to get on the ground. So, you're right it isn't just about flying,
it's about proficiency as well. If I couldn't afford to get up there
like I did, I wouldn't feel or be safe. I could afford a club, maybe
a fixed gear single and fly a few hours a month, but when I was
flying, gasoline was $5.00 an hour, (10gph @.50¢ a gallon) in the
Mooney). I was up there a lot.

The Cherokee we had was a 140. We moved from Pennsylvania to Colorado
and I had the nerve to fly it into Leadville Airport. 9963 msl. The
flight was planned so we landed about 8 am and took off at 8:30 am.
With two of us, the take-off was successful; good thing the ground
sloped downward and was mostly flat. Another time I tried to take a
friend from Denver to Kremling. We tried to get through Loveland Pass
twice. A downdraft had other ideas. After 3 tries, we gave up.
Shortly after that, I did a checkout in a V-Tail Bonanza (H-model)
then the Mooney. I bought the Mooney. And to be sure, I miss it. To
fly safely and live here, I'd need some degree of performance.

I trip around Landings.Com now and then. If I have nothing to do on a
Saturday I might get out my logbook and see where my old birds are.
The Cherokee we had crashed in Wisconsin a little over a year after I
traded it in. NTSB report said the air filter was clogged. What a
shame. Two on board, both survived. The aircraft was not salvaged. My
Mooney was ditched in lake Michigan. He ran out of gas but was able
to reach shore and keep it from going under water. The plane was
salvaged, fixed up and the last I saw of it, N3247F was for sale.
Maybe mentally, I'm still up there..somewhere.

I have an old FS program. I used to enjoy chosing the Lear25 and
flying off into the blue. I'd eat dinner and get back to the computer
and see where I was. That's my flying today.

Zaroc

On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 15:25:37 -0400, "Morgans"
wrote:


"Newps" wrote

You can't afford a boat? What the hell is there to afford there? I
bought my brothers boat this spring. Ten year old Bayliner 20 foot
speedboat we use for skiing, cruising the Bighorn Canyon, etc. After the
initial outlay of $8000 it costs virtually nothing to own. 32 gallons of
gas lasts a weekend.

Wait until the outdrive craps out, or some other major engine problem
surfaces.

Boat stands for "break out another thousand."

My last boat was a 23' Zobel. Had a 6cyl greymarine in it and
everytime we went out, spent $50 on gas. That was in 1967, before I
went to aviation. Again, I'm just not satisfied with floating around,
going fishing. I'd want to be back on the coast so I could run from
Seattle to San Diego - Bar Harbor to Ft. Lauderdale would be Ok too.

I am very close to retirement. End of the year. We plan to move back
east and live near a nice big lake. I might build a full sized model
of the African Queen, find a steam engine and just burn wood.
Zaroc

Zaroc Stone wrote:

I am very close to retirement. End of the year. We plan to move back
east and live near a nice big lake. I might build a full sized model
of the African Queen, find a steam engine and just burn wood.

Do it. By all means, do it.

On Sep 14, 7:26 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
Jeff Dougherty writes:


That surprises me, since a number of the disqualifying conditions are more
common than 1.5% of the population.

Well, it's what the stats say. :-) Now, the population of those
applying for an FAA medical is definitely not the same as the general
population. But I do think that those numbers support the idea that
the current medical regulations are not a serious barrier to entry
into general aviation.

And has been pointed out, if you don't think you can get one, fly as a
sport pilot. It's what I'll probably do.

Sport pilot is so restrictive that I don't think it would be worth the trouble
(at least for me).

Sure. But you're not everybody, and thus far it looks to be pretty
popular. To balance your anecdote with an anecdote, sport pilot
sounds just about perfect for yours truly.

I'm afraid that I can't really say much to these unless you're more
specific. As far as I know, once you have the PPL you can fly any
single engine landplane without retractable gear or a variable pitch
prop. There are enough gear-up landings each year that some
retractable-gear training certainly seems to be a good idea, and I
don't think anyone would argue that seaplanes and multiengine
airplanes shouldn't have their own training requirements.

There are lots of things that can make an aircraft more complex to fly, not
just retractable gear. So I'm not sure why retractable gear justifies a
separate restriction if the other stuff doesn't.
Not only that, but I like twin-engine aircraft with retractable gear and all
the other "complex" and "high-performance" stuff.

Actually, as I see it having these separate endorsements actually
makes it easier to get into aviation. Think about it. If there were
no separate categories for complex aircraft, multiengine, and so on,
then every holder of a PPL would have to be familiar with how to fly
any land plane, no matter how it was configured. That would mean that
a lot of systems that aren't currently part of the basic PPL would
have to be added to the course- managing a variable-pitch prop,
landing gear operations, how to manage a twin (which if nothing else,
certainly changes your approach to single engine out events), and so
forth. This would greatly increase the amount of time needed to earn
the PPL, and thus cost.

But with separate endorsements, that's not necessary. The basic PPL
lets you fly single engined, fixed prop and gear planes- which I would
venture to say are the majority of the GA fleet. Thus, the majority
of pilots who don't want to fly anything else aren't burdened by
training in systems that they're not going to use.

And for that matter, I think I've heard of people taking their PPL in
complex aircraft and getting the endorsement at the same time they got
their license. It's not common, but I believe it's been done.


As for "heavy regulation"...well, any amount of regulation can be
claimed to be heavy. Unless you're more specific about which regs you
consider unnecessarily burdensome, I can't really offer
counterpoints.

Compare the length of the FARs (even Part 91 alone) to a typical motor vehicle
code.

Sure. But something being long is different from it being
unnecessarily long. My college biochemistry textbook was a fairly
massive tome, but considering how much it covered it wasn't one page
longer than it needed to be. The dictionary is long. So is an
encyclopedia. Aviation is a complex subject, and just saying that the
regulations governing it are lengthy isn't the same as saying they're
unnecessarily long.

Now, I'm not defending every jot and title of the FARs. If every rule
in them is really necessary, they'll be the very first set of
government regulations in human history for which that is the case.
But length alone isn't a good criteria here.

Er. As a current applicant for medical school, I've gone through a
year of premed coursework (after finishing a bio major at a liberal
arts college), followed by a yearlong application process that
involves a lot of paperwork and some not inconsiderable fees to get me
the chance to fly at my own expense somewhere for an interview, after
which the school might or might not admit me. I've definitely spent
more than 90 hours on the application process, and my total bill
probably won't come out to be much less than a PPL once I'm done
interviewing all over creation. (With the amount of flying I need to
do soon, I'll have my multiengine pax rating in no time! ;~) ) It's
taken two years on top of the four I spent in college, a lot of money
and skull sweat...

...and that's just to get *into* medical school.

Sure, but a PPL is just to get _into_ flying. You still need other ratings
and certifications, an airplane, an airport, and so on.

When/if I start,
I'll then do four years worth of intensive coursework, followed by at
least three years of residency pulling 80-100 hour weeks. Followed by
a licensing process that will look at my health at least as closely as
an FAA medical.

You can't be a doctor if you're diabetic or an epileptic?

That's actually a good question, and I had to do some searching to get
the exact answer. (This is all based off of the Mass. Medical Board's
rules, if anyone is interested.) There don't seem to be any
conditions that are automatic DQs, but any physical or mental
condition which in the Board's opinion could interfere with the
practice of medicine is grounds for denial of a license to practice.
Short, but it potentially covers a lot of ground.

At any rate, even if we want to say that the physical itself is easier
I think the rest of my point stands.

But in consideration of
the above, I would be interested to know what part of becoming a
doctor you consider easier than becoming a private pilot.

If all you want is a PPL, it's easier than becoming a doctor. If you want
something more complex than a PPL, and if you want to actually fly on a
regular basis, the time and expense starts to increase almost exponentially.

Right. But the thread was talking about GA and people getting a PPL,
and you said upthread that you weren't talking about professional
pilots, but about the problems faced by amateurs. Which are there, no
question, but comparing the amount of time and money required to be a
pilot to the amount required to be a doctor is a little silly. With
five minutes on Google I found a flight school that would take me from
zero time to ATP for what I could end up spending on about a year and
a half worth of medical school, and probably in a lot less time as
well.

In my case, my favorite sim aircraft is a Beechcraft Baron 58. But becoming a
pilot of my own Baron in real life would be hideously time-consuming,
difficult, and expensive. I suppose if I just wanted to fly a Piper Cub,
things might be different, but I don't want to fly a piece of junk, and I'd
want to be instrument rated.

Piper Cub a piece of junk?

Man, where's your sense of beauty? :-)

Seriously, to each his own. But if anyone offered me a chance to get
in an honest-to-Yeager Piper Cub and buzz around, I'd be out the door
so fast you'd never see me going.

On Sep 15, 12:45 am, "Mike Isaksen" wrote:
"Jeff Dougherty" wrote ...



On Sep 12, 1:06 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
It's easier to become a lawyer than it is to become a pilot, and
in some respects it's easier to become a doctor as well.

Er. As a current applicant for medical school,...
Keep focused on the med school road, but spend a bit of free time (yeah
right,...ha,ha) searching out a flying club in the area around the school.
Go to meetings and announce that you would like share some time and
expenses. You are bound to get some takers and you'll undoubtedly find
yourself on the controls (most PPLs are eager teachers). Good luck.

We'll see. I don't know if "free time" and "medical school" belong in
the same paragraph, let alone the same sentence...but there's endless
room in this world to improvise, adapt, and overcome. Thanks for the
good wishes.

Mxsmanic wrote:
Gig 601XL Builder writes:

Tell me what is so restrictive about it. The type of flight it
authorizes would cover 90% of the recreational GA flight in the US.

It's restrictive because it wouldn't allow me to fly in a way that
would make flying worthwhile. I don't just want to putter around in
a circle.

The current crop of S-LSA aircraft are capable of turning a 5.5 hour car
trip into a 2 hour trip with a wonderful view.



Because of the additional cost of the aircraft and the general lack
of need for it in recreational GA flying.

In other words, time, expense, and difficulty, QED.

As anything gets more complex it gets more expensive. VWs cost less than
Corvetts.



So it is your stance that the requirements for a private pilot
ticket are on par with the requirements to be a lawyer or doctor?

They are certainly on a par with becoming a lawyer, which
(surprisingly) isn't that difficult in the U.S. They are comparable
to becoming a doctor as well, depending on how far you want to go.

Let's look and see. http://www.ilrg.com/schools/analysis/ That site has a
link to the to 51 top law schools on a cost/benefit ranking. Number 51
University of CT. Shows a THREE YEAR TOTAL COST of $103,182 & number 1
Univ. of GA was $45K.

How is that "on par" with getting a PP-SEL rating?

Gig 601XL Builder writes:

The current crop of S-LSA aircraft are capable of turning a 5.5 hour car
trip into a 2 hour trip with a wonderful view.

I don't like to travel.

Let's look and see. http://www.ilrg.com/schools/analysis/ That site has a
link to the to 51 top law schools on a cost/benefit ranking. Number 51
University of CT. Shows a THREE YEAR TOTAL COST of $103,182 & number 1
Univ. of GA was $45K.

How is that "on par" with getting a PP-SEL rating?

How much do the top flight schools cost? And a top aircraft? And hours of
study equivalent to those required for a law degree?

Jeff Dougherty writes:

And for that matter, I think I've heard of people taking their PPL in
complex aircraft and getting the endorsement at the same time they got
their license. It's not common, but I believe it's been done.

That's what I'd want to do. Train and get all necessary certifications in the
very aircraft I plan to fly.

That's actually a good question, and I had to do some searching to get
the exact answer. (This is all based off of the Mass. Medical Board's
rules, if anyone is interested.) There don't seem to be any
conditions that are automatic DQs, but any physical or mental
condition which in the Board's opinion could interfere with the
practice of medicine is grounds for denial of a license to practice.
Short, but it potentially covers a lot of ground.

Sounds mostly like certain mental illnesses and contagious diseases. So
lepers and psychotics need not apply. But hypertension, migraines, a single
seizure at the age of 12, or a prescription for an anxiolytic 20 years ago
presumably are not obstacles.

Piper Cub a piece of junk?

I exaggerate for emphasis, but it's a bit too small and primitive for my
tastes.

Man, where's your sense of beauty?

Yellow is just not my color.

Seriously, to each his own. But if anyone offered me a chance to get
in an honest-to-Yeager Piper Cub and buzz around, I'd be out the door
so fast you'd never see me going.

You have a problem with Beechcraft Barons?