Force feedback versus real piloting?

es330td wrote:
On Oct 7, 12:42 pm, Mike Granby wrote:
His corrections were almost unnoticable; the plane just stayed where
it was meant to be. I comment on this to his dad later, and we both
wondered if his sim training had giving him this skill...

My CFI said the same thing. I "played" MSFS with an eye toward IRL
flying for about 2 years before sitting left seat the first time. We
did a 30 mile cross country during my second lesson and he said that I
held course and altitude better than some people he knows who have
been flying for 20 years. Either FS was responsible or I am the most
natural pilot to get in a plane. I am not even thinking about it
being the latter.


I'm assuming there's a lot more to this 2nd lesson story as it reads as
the antithesis of normal procedure for a flight training learning curve.
:-))

--
Dudley Henriques

Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

george wrote:
On Oct 9, 11:08 am, Mxsmanic wrote:
Bertie the Bunyip writes:
You couldn't start my airplane, let alone get it to the end of
the runway, fjukkwit.
Some aircraft I know how to start, others not.
My aeroplane would not fit in your bedroom

It might if you flew a Pitts.


Or one of thsoe Cri Cris.



Just got an old copy of "The conquest of lines and symmetry" in
anticiaption of my return to the wonderful world of trying to break
your neck. His syllaus is very strange in my view, but I can see
soe sense in it at the same time. I developed my own over the years
when I used to teach them and came to the conclusion early that one
of the first things they needed to learn was how to stay out, but
more importantlt, how to get out of trouble.
Now. Immelmans would have been well down the road in my classes, bu
the teaches them on lesson one. "This is nuts" though I. But then I
realised that even though the student was going to end up pointing
about 90 deg from the entry heading at the end when he tries this
first, he's going to be learning the principles of an escape
manuever by virtue of the fact that it's forcing him to think in
three axes. Clever boy!



Bertie
I had a copy of Duane's book around here somewhere but it's probably
hidden under something REAL dusty by now.

Not quite sure how Cole structured his book, but verticals are a bit
easier for new akro students to handle than rolls. I wouldn't start
anyone with Immelmans however.
I'd always start a newbie out by allowing them to do simple nose
high entry aileron rolls both ways which allowed them to see and
feel the airplane go around and gave them a taste of going inverted.
This was a teaser really as aileron rolls have little use in
aerobatics other than in rolling recoveries from botched maneuvers.


I agree, and that's kind of the way I was thinking, but duane made me
think again. And who wouldn't listen to him?
My own syllabus would vary, but for these guys who have no tailwheel
time to speak of I'll start them with Dutch rolls, some slow flight,
and when they figure out what their feet are for then some spins with
the emphasis on recognition and recovery.
Chandelles then to reasonable proficiency. A few lazy eights, then
loops. Aileron rolls next, then wingovers (one of my favorites since
it hones rudder skills in particular) Snaps. then some inverted and
onto barrel rolls and slow rolls. Everything after that is some
combination anyway. Before they go solo I show them how to recognise
trouble early by having a series of gates. If they fail to reach an
attitude or airspeed by the time they reached one of the gates, they
exit the manuever.


Bertie


Gates are exactly how we structure an airshow display. Using them
keeps people alive :-)

Sounds like a good learning curve you are setting up, also about what
mine was, which of course makes it the perfect plan :-)


Well, I can't see it going any other way. Anyhow, i'll be playing a lot
of it by ear with them giving them what they need as they need it.

Bertie

Dudley Henriques wrote:
es330td wrote:
On Oct 7, 12:42 pm, Mike Granby wrote:
His corrections were almost unnoticable; the plane just stayed where
it was meant to be. I comment on this to his dad later, and we both
wondered if his sim training had giving him this skill...

My CFI said the same thing. I "played" MSFS with an eye toward IRL
flying for about 2 years before sitting left seat the first time. We
did a 30 mile cross country during my second lesson and he said that
I held course and altitude better than some people he knows who have
been flying for 20 years. Either FS was responsible or I am the most
natural pilot to get in a plane. I am not even thinking about it
being the latter.


I'm assuming there's a lot more to this 2nd lesson story as it reads
as the antithesis of normal procedure for a flight training learning
curve. :-))

Not to mention that it would hardly be the first time an instructor blew
smoke of a students ass to make them feel good about a flight.

Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote:
es330td wrote:
On Oct 7, 12:42 pm, Mike Granby wrote:
His corrections were almost unnoticable; the plane just stayed where
it was meant to be. I comment on this to his dad later, and we both
wondered if his sim training had giving him this skill...
My CFI said the same thing. I "played" MSFS with an eye toward IRL
flying for about 2 years before sitting left seat the first time. We
did a 30 mile cross country during my second lesson and he said that
I held course and altitude better than some people he knows who have
been flying for 20 years. Either FS was responsible or I am the most
natural pilot to get in a plane. I am not even thinking about it
being the latter.

I'm assuming there's a lot more to this 2nd lesson story as it reads
as the antithesis of normal procedure for a flight training learning
curve. :-))

Not to mention that it would hardly be the first time an instructor blew
smoke of a students ass to make them feel good about a flight.



101 actually :-) Any good instructor uses the first flight to bolster
the new student's confidence level to the point where they honestly
believe that they CAN learn to fly. In almost all cases this involves a
bit of "positive over stating". No harm at all in doing this as it's all
corrected down the line.
DH

--
Dudley Henriques

Dudley Henriques wrote in
news
Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote:
es330td wrote:
On Oct 7, 12:42 pm, Mike Granby wrote:
His corrections were almost unnoticable; the plane just stayed
where it was meant to be. I comment on this to his dad later, and
we both wondered if his sim training had giving him this skill...
My CFI said the same thing. I "played" MSFS with an eye toward IRL
flying for about 2 years before sitting left seat the first time.
We did a 30 mile cross country during my second lesson and he said
that I held course and altitude better than some people he knows
who have been flying for 20 years. Either FS was responsible or I
am the most natural pilot to get in a plane. I am not even
thinking about it being the latter.

I'm assuming there's a lot more to this 2nd lesson story as it reads
as the antithesis of normal procedure for a flight training learning
curve. :-))

Not to mention that it would hardly be the first time an instructor
blew smoke of a students ass to make them feel good about a flight.



101 actually :-) Any good instructor uses the first flight to bolster
the new student's confidence level to the point where they honestly
believe that they CAN learn to fly. In almost all cases this involves
a bit of "positive over stating". No harm at all in doing this as it's
all corrected down the line.
DH


And there would be a lot of damage to repair if this guy has been
spending too much toime at the box.

One of my first primary students was a kid who was obsessed with
becoming an airplane pilot. He had a friend that flew a Cv580 for you
know who. The kid got a lot of stick time in this airplane (this was
long before even the primitive desktop sims came around) and sure
enough, he was pretty good on instruments. I eventually signed him off,
though he resisted all my attempts to shove pilotage and other good ole
trad methods down his neck. He went for his flight test and one of the
first things the examoner did was to fail the radios on him.

he failed.
By the time he was ready to retake I had moved to another field where I
was now teaching in proper airplanes, though for some reason we had a
cherokee on the books. Anyhow, he hunted me down and wanted to do some
more towards getting signed off for another flight test. He came up. I
failed the radio on him and he still bitched, but had his sectional
which he pulled out and off we went towards the destination.
He was lost inside of five miles. Completely lost. Not a clue where he
was.
He had brought up a five year old sectional that did not have the lake
that had just been formed by the new dam at it;s head...

Anyhow, I signed him off again after a few more hours and he got his
private. Don't know if he ever became "A Airline pile-it" but he;'s not
in the FAA database.


Bertie

"Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote in
:

Dudley Henriques wrote:
es330td wrote:
On Oct 7, 12:42 pm, Mike Granby wrote:
His corrections were almost unnoticable; the plane just stayed where
it was meant to be. I comment on this to his dad later, and we both
wondered if his sim training had giving him this skill...

My CFI said the same thing. I "played" MSFS with an eye toward IRL
flying for about 2 years before sitting left seat the first time. We
did a 30 mile cross country during my second lesson and he said that
I held course and altitude better than some people he knows who have
been flying for 20 years. Either FS was responsible or I am the most
natural pilot to get in a plane. I am not even thinking about it
being the latter.


I'm assuming there's a lot more to this 2nd lesson story as it reads
as the antithesis of normal procedure for a flight training learning
curve. :-))

Not to mention that it would hardly be the first time an instructor blew
smoke of a students ass to make them feel good about a flight.



Has anyone ever not done this?

Wait, mine didn't!


There are one or two I did this with who I really should have encouraged to
take up boating, though.

Bertie

Gig 601XL Builder wrote:

Not to mention that it would hardly be the first time an instructor blew
smoke of a students ass to make them feel good about a flight.


They usually want them to come back. G

B A R R Y wrote:
Gig 601XL Builder wrote:

Not to mention that it would hardly be the first time an instructor
blew smoke of a students ass to make them feel good about a flight.

They usually want them to come back. G


That's part of it, but not the main reason for it with instructors who
are any good at all.
Very few newbies arrive at the airport for the first hour of dual
feeling confident about what they are about to attempt to achieve. With
few exceptions they might appear confident on the surface, but below
that lies an area of entering the unknown that can be quite intimidating.

The very worst thing any instructor can do to these people is to allow
that first dual session to go beyond the newbies capabilities to cope
and into the area where the session ends with the newbie feeling over
tasked and thereby over their head.
The fine line you want to walk as the instructor on that first flight is
to achieve a dual purpose with the flight.
You want to take them into this new world carefully. You want to give
them tasks simple enough that they can achieve a degree of success with
those tasks and at the same time take them just enough into the unknown
where the flight leaves them feeling good about themselves and at the
same time looking forward to what's coming next.
Trust me; this is something that marks an instructor as being
exceptional or just doing the job.

Walking the fine line that defines superior flight instruction is
perhaps the single most difficult aspect of flight instruction.

--
Dudley Henriques

Bertie the Bunyip Sn rt.1 wrote:

John Doe jdoe usenetlove.invalid wrote in
news:9UEOi.58301$YL5.31880
newssvr29.news.prodigy.net:



You appear to be thinking in black-and-white again Mr. Henriques.
What a poster posts and the ID he (or she) is using are both
useful. If you're good at it, you can usually tell whether the
poster is legit.

But you , apparently, can't.

I can and I do. And I don't persistently make an ass out of myself
by posting ineffectual control freak garbage after every message
from someone I don't like. You are a garbage spewing asshole, Bertie
the Bunyip.

Take your own advice, take a good look at (free.usenet). Learn a
lesson and stop spamming the groups you frequent. Most people would
rather you don't, but you do because you're just an intentionally
disruptive troll who couldn't care less about anybody else.













Bertie


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From: Bertie the Bunyip Sn rt.1
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: Force feedback versus real piloting?
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 07:25:45 +0000 (UTC)
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John Doe wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip Sn rt.1 wrote:

John Doe jdoe usenetlove.invalid wrote in
news:9UEOi.58301$YL5.31880
newssvr29.news.prodigy.net:



You appear to be thinking in black-and-white again Mr. Henriques.
What a poster posts and the ID he (or she) is using are both
useful. If you're good at it, you can usually tell whether the
poster is legit.

But you , apparently, can't.

I can and I do. And I don't persistently make an ass out of myself
by posting ineffectual control freak garbage after every message
from someone I don't like. You are a garbage spewing asshole, Bertie
the Bunyip.

So, what's your point/



Take your own advice, take a good look at (free.usenet). Learn a
lesson and stop spamming the groups you frequent. Most people would
rather you don't, but you do because you're just an intentionally
disruptive troll who couldn't care less about anybody else.



Spamming?


Now you're just being mean.

Bertie

Intersting wallpaper, BTW














Bertie


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!shaw.ca!news.alt.net From: Bertie the Bunyip Sn rt.1
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: Force feedback versus real piloting?
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 07:25:45 +0000 (UTC)
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