Precision Airmotive LLC

"Ernest Christley" wrote in message
...

You may be right, Alex, but after reading the article Cy referenced I have
to ask myself if Precision really does deliver carbs with loose screws.
If that truly is the case, then they deserve to be submarined. The article
indicates that there is a history of problems that Precision and Teledyne
couldn't be bothered to deal with. This sounds like the actions of a
company with monopoly power, ie, "We don't need to fix it. Who else are
they going to buy from?" Our liability laws are screwy beyond belief, but
knowingly putting someone else's life at risk deserves severe punishment.

I read it too. Keep in mind that this is on the winning lawyer's website,
not some independent observer. It's a commercial, not a report. This is what
they managed to convince a jury of, not necessarily what really went on in
day-to-day business. Mind you, if Precision had really done this then
thousands of aircraft engines would sooner or later fail due to this. Also,
thousands of owners and A&P's would have failed to notice the 'problem' for
years. And if this had been regular occurance do you think the FAA would
*not* have sent out an AD to check this? Highly unlikely.

The problem is with the lawyer system and the way it allows ridiculous
claims to be honored. With all due respect, I think $53.000.000 is totally
insane for a lose screw that could have been detected by proper maintenance.

Rob

On Sun, 04 Nov 2007 20:19:04 -0500, Ernest Christley
wrote:

Alex G. wrote:
I blamed the lawyers before I even knew about this. Lawyers screw up
everything they touch, it's not about liability or fairness or common sense,
it about money. they should all hang, every single one of 'em. If you're a
lawyer and you're offended, that's fine with me, be offended---Then get a
real job you leech!

"Cy Galley" wrote in message
news:ValXi.185405$Fc.162766@attbi_s21...
Here's why carbs are being discontinued...

http://arthuralanwolk.com/_wsn/page2.html

Our old friend Alan Wolk that almost wiped out AvWeb. Look at the other
suites he posts. He's doing more to reduce flying accidents than the FAA.
Of course, No Flying means No flying accidents.








You may be right, Alex, but after reading the article Cy referenced I
have to ask myself if Precision really does deliver carbs with loose
screws. If that truly is the case, then they deserve to be submarined.
The article indicates that there is a history of problems that
Precision and Teledyne couldn't be bothered to deal with. This sounds
like the actions of a company with monopoly power, ie, "We don't need to
fix it. Who else are they going to buy from?" Our liability laws are
screwy beyond belief, but knowingly putting someone else's life at risk
deserves severe punishment.

ernie I'm in the middle of repairing one of their carbs and sorting
out a problem I inherited in the near new one I bought from a friend.
the carb I'm repairing simply wore out after 22 years of flawless
service.

what I've discovered in working on the carbs is that the locking tabs
do a shocking job of retaining the case screws. the problem is that
the design, the process and the materials are part of a certificated
aeronautical process which must be followed to the letter.

the other problem on the MA3 carby is that the case bolts are at best
optimistic. there should be 3 more bolts used to hold the two halves
of the carby together. common engineering sense doesnt come into play
here unless you are prepared to step out of the bounds of the
certification (which I am)

if you assemble the case just right with a soft gasket it all seals up
properly, but overtorque the bolts and you can warp the case. it then
leaks through the gasket right under the data plate.

the problem is that when "certification" was created as the path to
safe aviation there wasnt a lot of engineering savvy regarding what
made safe designs. the approach was to lock in any half good design
and not allow any changes in case something was introduced that broke
the magic.
adherence to "certification" as a process is well beyond it's use by
date. you can see in endeavours such as the automobile that the
technology of aviation is being left well behind by less regulated
environments. Engineering knowledge has advanced in the last century
to the point where it isnt difficult to produce competent designs in
most fields of endeavour.
Aviation is still locked into a 1930's quality assurance process on
the assumption that the sky will fall in if it ever ceases.
(harken back to the Inca sacrifices for another example of this style
of management)

It would be really good for aviation if the slick lawyers could
eradicate "certification" from the world of aviation and allow a more
normal engineering approach to development.

One of the modern downsides to "certification" is that it creates the
impression of perfection. people react mighty bitterly when something
is purchased with an air of perfection that proves to be just a piece
of old technology that fails them.

It would be interesting to find out why carby case bolts cant be
fitted with spring washers to stop them coming loose.
Of course even spring washers, although much better than the metal
tabs in use, are a poor relation to Nordlocks which I think is what
aircraft carbys should be secured with.

These guys are victims of the system. we need to change the system and
return aviation to the real world of engineering development.
Problem is that the FAA's of the world are convinced that the sky will
fall in if the religion of certification is ever overthrown.

The lawyers are just having a field day exposing our industry
stupidity.

Stealth Pilot
involved in aviation since 1971.

On Sun, 4 Nov 2007 22:11:36 -0400, "Alex G." wrote:

I don't think I would put a carb on without verifying things like bowl
screws were tight. I usually dissasemble and clean things like this before
use, and that's for a lawnmower or outboard. What was the mechanic doing? I
have witnessed Continental exhaust valves sticking, usually they were badly
carboned up- operator error? Who knows? I doubt the lawyers allowed anyone
with any mechanical experience on the jury, in fact I'd bet on it.


in the certified world of aviation you are not permitted to
disassemble and clean a tagged device prior to installation.
those actions invalidate the approvals to fit the device.

thats the rub for these folks. they cant afford the elaborate process
needed to make any changes and they cant afford to continue as they
are. they have been screwed by the ineptitude of the system.

Stealth Pilot

Being in business and having been sued (suits were all without merit
and were dismissed by the judge(s) in the end, but cost me many tens
of thousands of dollars to defend) I am no friend of trial lawyers...

Being an airplane owner that purchased a remanufactured carb (at a big
price) that when placed on the engine gushed fuel all over the floor
the instant the fuel valve was turned on (never even got around to
starting it) - sucks also...
So that carb was then removed and sent back by next day air for a
promised replacement the same way within 24 hours...

A week later we (me and AP mechanic) get back the same carb we shipped
out - by 24 hour fed ex on my nickel - OK, so they waited a week then
repaired it instead of replacing, their bad, but at least I have a
carb...
Carb installed... Still gushes fuel.. *&%(%$$#(@!
Now semi hostile fone calls

Carb boxed up and shipped back, again... More big time nickels...
Two and a half days later this time, it is back...
Carb reinstalled again - "Look it holds fuel, whoopeee." Test run
quickly, right inside the shop, runs ok...

So, they put the cowls back on... We taxi out for take off... Engine
suddenly starts to run rough... OH, OH, now it is slobbering fuel (at
least that is an improvement over 'gushing'...

Mechanic calls the "factory".... This is an outright HOSTILE fone call
- mechanic has to turn his back and hold out his arm to block me from
grabbing the fone... The factory manager indignantly states he
personally WATCHED the techs test that carb and there was nothing
wrong with it, period! After being chewed out by an old time mechanic
he agrees for us to open the carb without voiding the, by now useless,
warrantee and see what is going on...

Pop the top - ohhh lookee, the float is hanging all cattywumpus
because the hinge pin is halfway out... Golly, look here,,, The cotter
pin that secures the hinge pin is missing and there was no way for it
to get out of the float bowl... Old grizzled mechanic finds a new
cotter pin and sticks things back together... Gets out his home made
float gage and sets the float height (it was wrong!)... Puts the carb
back on the plane. It runs just fine and has for the past 3 years...

OK. alls well that ends well... What if the free floating hinge pin
decided to stay in place until I was fifty feet over the trees on take
off with my grandchildren in the back seats, then drop the float into
the bottom of the bowl and gush fuel all over the exhaust pipes?

denny

On Nov 5, 6:17 am, Denny wrote:
Being in business and having been sued (suits were all without merit
and were dismissed by the judge(s) in the end, but cost me many tens
of thousands of dollars to defend) I am no friend of trial lawyers...

Being an airplane owner that purchased a remanufactured carb (at a big
price) that when placed on the engine gushed fuel all over the floor
the instant the fuel valve was turned on (never even got around to
starting it) - sucks also...
So that carb was then removed and sent back by next day air for a
promised replacement the same way within 24 hours...

A week later we (me and AP mechanic) get back the same carb we shipped
out - by 24 hour fed ex on my nickel - OK, so they waited a week then
repaired it instead of replacing, their bad, but at least I have a
carb...
Carb installed... Still gushes fuel.. *&%(%$$#(@!
Now semi hostile fone calls

Carb boxed up and shipped back, again... More big time nickels...
Two and a half days later this time, it is back...
Carb reinstalled again - "Look it holds fuel, whoopeee." Test run
quickly, right inside the shop, runs ok...

So, they put the cowls back on... We taxi out for take off... Engine
suddenly starts to run rough... OH, OH, now it is slobbering fuel (at
least that is an improvement over 'gushing'...

Mechanic calls the "factory".... This is an outright HOSTILE fone call
- mechanic has to turn his back and hold out his arm to block me from
grabbing the fone... The factory manager indignantly states he
personally WATCHED the techs test that carb and there was nothing
wrong with it, period! After being chewed out by an old time mechanic
he agrees for us to open the carb without voiding the, by now useless,
warrantee and see what is going on...

Pop the top - ohhh lookee, the float is hanging all cattywumpus
because the hinge pin is halfway out... Golly, look here,,, The cotter
pin that secures the hinge pin is missing and there was no way for it
to get out of the float bowl... Old grizzled mechanic finds a new
cotter pin and sticks things back together... Gets out his home made
float gage and sets the float height (it was wrong!)... Puts the carb
back on the plane. It runs just fine and has for the past 3 years...

OK. alls well that ends well... What if the free floating hinge pin
decided to stay in place until I was fifty feet over the trees on take
off with my grandchildren in the back seats, then drop the float into
the bottom of the bowl and gush fuel all over the exhaust pipes?

denny

Rule number one.... NEVER trust a yellow tagged item. They can and
will kill ya..

Rob Turk wrote:

This is really sad news and scary to say the least. If it becomes a
trend then there will be ever less companies able to produce aircraft
parts. Loss of product, loss of jobs. Maybe they should consider
outsourcing their production to a less litigious country? That would
help reducing the insurance premium.

Rob

If the company has assets in the US it can be sued in the US. Maybe becoming
the less litigious country would be a better idea.

On Sat, 03 Nov 2007 05:58:50 GMT, Jerry Springer
wrote:

Instead of whining about lawyers, liability and the big problems with
our countries liability issue, I'm more interested in the basics. Such
as, do other manufacturers make STC'd parts for the
Precision/facet/Marvel dribbler carbs? Such as Kelly? Or did they buy
the parts from Precision and then overhaul carbs using those? If stc'd
parts are made elsewhere, then we should be okay keeping the current
crop of carbs flying. Precision didn't mention if they would continue
to sell carbs to the homebuilt/experimental market. But I suspect they
won't. Not sure about their Silverhawk add-on fuel injection system.
Be interesting to see if they continue to maket the non-certified
stuff. I've had mixed results from Precision. I flew to Lakeland a few
years ago in my homebuilt with a Marvel carb on my lyc. 160. My carb
had a problem, and I bought a rebuilt one directly from Precision,
having it shipped overnight to my hotel. I installed it in the
emergency repair area, then flew back home with it. Had mixture
problems all the way home. Once I got there, I found the case half
bolts were loose, never tightened correctly. And the carb was leaking
fuel along the seam. I was pretty angry they'd send me something that
messed up, so I raised hell with them, and they shipped me a brand new
one. I found out later, they farm out the overhaul to a foriegn
country. So goes the crappy job. Plus the first carb they sent me
looked ancient, an old Marvel one, and I suspect the internal threads
were worn out. That being the reason it worked loose. At least I got a
new one out of them before they stopped production. I think they
brought on some of their problems themselves. But I don't know of
anyone that manufactures the carb body, and that can wear out. So if
someone has an old carb body that has worn out threads. or is cracked,
they'll be looking for a used carb somewhere else.
RAM












Peter Nielson
Product Support Mgr.
Precision Airmotive LLC
14800 40th Ave NE
Marysville, WA 98271

360-651-8282

Subject: Letter to Industry

Here is the text of a letter we are sending out to the industry today.

Precision Airmotive LLC has discontinued sales of all float
carburetors and component parts as of November 1, 2007. This
unfortunate situation is a result of our inability to obtain products
liability insurance for the product line. Precision Airmotive LLC and
its 43 employees currently manufacture and support the float
carburetors used in nearly all carbureted general aviation aircraft
flying today. Precision has been the manufacturer of these
carburetors since 1990. These FAA-approved carburetors were designed
as early as the 1930's and continue to fly over a million flight hours
a year. After decades of service, the reliability of these
carburetors speaks for itself.

Nonetheless, Precision has seen its liability insurance premiums rise
dramatically, to the point that the premium now exceeds the total
sales dollars for this entire product line. In the past, we have
absorbed that cost, with the hope that the aviation industry as a
whole would be able to help address this issue faced by Precision
Airmotive, as well as many other small aviation companies. Our
efforts have been unsuccessful.

This year, despite the decades of reliable service and despite the
design approval by the FAA, Precision Airmotive has been unable to
obtain products liability insurance for the carburetor product line.
While we firmly believe that the product is safe, as does the FAA, and
well supported by dedicated people both at Precision and at our
independent product support centers, unfortunately the litigation
costs for defending the carburetor in court are unsustainable for a
small business such as Precision.

Therefore, as of November 1, 2007, Precision Airmotive LLC has been
left with no choice but to cease production and support of its float
carburetor product line.

We are working with the engine manufacturers and others in the
industry in an attempt to minimize the impact on general aviation and
to provide future support for this product line. There is a
substantial quantity of parts and carburetors stocked at our
distributors which should be sufficient to support the industry for a
short time.

Instead ofdiscussing lawyers, liability and the big problems with
our countries liability issue, I'm more interested in the basics. Such
as, do other manufacturers make STC'd parts for the
Precision/facet/Marvel dribbler carbs? Such as Kelly? Or did they buy
the parts from Precision and then overhaul carbs using those? If stc'd
parts are made elsewhere, then we should be okay keeping the current
crop of carbs flying. Precision didn't mention if they would continue
to sell carbs to the homebuilt/experimental market. But I suspect they
won't. Not sure about their Silverhawk add-on fuel injection system.
Be interesting to see if they continue to maket the non-certified
stuff. I've had mixed results from Precision. I flew to Lakeland a few
years ago in my homebuilt with a Marvel carb on my lyc. 160. My carb
had a problem, and I bought a rebuilt one directly from Precision,
having it shipped overnight to my hotel. I installed it in the
emergency repair area, then flew back home with it. Had mixture
problems all the way home. Once I got there, I found the case half
bolts were loose, never tightened correctly. And the carb was leaking
fuel along the seam. I was pretty angry they'd send me something that
messed up, so I raised hell with them, and they shipped me a brand new
one. I found out later, they farm out the overhaul to a foriegn
country. So goes the crappy job. Plus the first carb they sent me
looked ancient, an old Marvel one, and I suspect the internal threads
were worn out. That being the reason it worked loose. At least I got a
new one out of them before they stopped production. I think they
brought on some of their problems themselves. But I don't know of
anyone that manufactures the carb body, and that can wear out. So if
someone has an old carb body that has worn out threads. or is cracked,
they'll be looking for a used carb somewhere else.
RAM



On Sat, 03 Nov 2007 05:58:50 GMT, Jerry Springer
wrote:

Peter Nielson
Product Support Mgr.
Precision Airmotive LLC
14800 40th Ave NE
Marysville, WA 98271

360-651-8282

Subject: Letter to Industry

Here is the text of a letter we are sending out to the industry today.

Precision Airmotive LLC has discontinued sales of all float
carburetors and component parts as of November 1, 2007. This
unfortunate situation is a result of our inability to obtain products
liability insurance for the product line. Precision Airmotive LLC and
its 43 employees currently manufacture and support the float
carburetors used in nearly all carbureted general aviation aircraft
flying today. Precision has been the manufacturer of these
carburetors since 1990. These FAA-approved carburetors were designed
as early as the 1930's and continue to fly over a million flight hours
a year. After decades of service, the reliability of these
carburetors speaks for itself.

Nonetheless, Precision has seen its liability insurance premiums rise
dramatically, to the point that the premium now exceeds the total
sales dollars for this entire product line. In the past, we have
absorbed that cost, with the hope that the aviation industry as a
whole would be able to help address this issue faced by Precision
Airmotive, as well as many other small aviation companies. Our
efforts have been unsuccessful.

This year, despite the decades of reliable service and despite the
design approval by the FAA, Precision Airmotive has been unable to
obtain products liability insurance for the carburetor product line.
While we firmly believe that the product is safe, as does the FAA, and
well supported by dedicated people both at Precision and at our
independent product support centers, unfortunately the litigation
costs for defending the carburetor in court are unsustainable for a
small business such as Precision.

Therefore, as of November 1, 2007, Precision Airmotive LLC has been
left with no choice but to cease production and support of its float
carburetor product line.

We are working with the engine manufacturers and others in the
industry in an attempt to minimize the impact on general aviation and
to provide future support for this product line. There is a
substantial quantity of parts and carburetors stocked at our
distributors which should be sufficient to support the industry for a
short time.

My question is Why oh Why didn't you check the carb screws before to put in
on your plane?

--
Cy Galley - Chair,
AirVenture Emergency Aircraft Repair
A 46 Year Service Project of Chapter 75
EAA Safety Programs Editor - TC
New address -
EAA Sport Pilot

"four-oh-four" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 03 Nov 2007 05:58:50 GMT, Jerry Springer
wrote:

Instead of whining about lawyers, liability and the big problems with
our countries liability issue, I'm more interested in the basics. Such
as, do other manufacturers make STC'd parts for the
Precision/facet/Marvel dribbler carbs? Such as Kelly? Or did they buy
the parts from Precision and then overhaul carbs using those? If stc'd
parts are made elsewhere, then we should be okay keeping the current
crop of carbs flying. Precision didn't mention if they would continue
to sell carbs to the homebuilt/experimental market. But I suspect they
won't. Not sure about their Silverhawk add-on fuel injection system.
Be interesting to see if they continue to maket the non-certified
stuff. I've had mixed results from Precision. I flew to Lakeland a few
years ago in my homebuilt with a Marvel carb on my lyc. 160. My carb
had a problem, and I bought a rebuilt one directly from Precision,
having it shipped overnight to my hotel. I installed it in the
emergency repair area, then flew back home with it. Had mixture
problems all the way home. Once I got there, I found the case half
bolts were loose, never tightened correctly. And the carb was leaking
fuel along the seam. I was pretty angry they'd send me something that
messed up, so I raised hell with them, and they shipped me a brand new
one. I found out later, they farm out the overhaul to a foriegn
country. So goes the crappy job. Plus the first carb they sent me
looked ancient, an old Marvel one, and I suspect the internal threads
were worn out. That being the reason it worked loose. At least I got a
new one out of them before they stopped production. I think they
brought on some of their problems themselves. But I don't know of
anyone that manufactures the carb body, and that can wear out. So if
someone has an old carb body that has worn out threads. or is cracked,
they'll be looking for a used carb somewhere else.
RAM












Peter Nielson
Product Support Mgr.
Precision Airmotive LLC
14800 40th Ave NE
Marysville, WA 98271

360-651-8282

Subject: Letter to Industry

Here is the text of a letter we are sending out to the industry today.

Precision Airmotive LLC has discontinued sales of all float
carburetors and component parts as of November 1, 2007. This
unfortunate situation is a result of our inability to obtain products
liability insurance for the product line. Precision Airmotive LLC and
its 43 employees currently manufacture and support the float
carburetors used in nearly all carbureted general aviation aircraft
flying today. Precision has been the manufacturer of these
carburetors since 1990. These FAA-approved carburetors were designed
as early as the 1930's and continue to fly over a million flight hours
a year. After decades of service, the reliability of these
carburetors speaks for itself.

Nonetheless, Precision has seen its liability insurance premiums rise
dramatically, to the point that the premium now exceeds the total
sales dollars for this entire product line. In the past, we have
absorbed that cost, with the hope that the aviation industry as a
whole would be able to help address this issue faced by Precision
Airmotive, as well as many other small aviation companies. Our
efforts have been unsuccessful.

This year, despite the decades of reliable service and despite the
design approval by the FAA, Precision Airmotive has been unable to
obtain products liability insurance for the carburetor product line.
While we firmly believe that the product is safe, as does the FAA, and
well supported by dedicated people both at Precision and at our
independent product support centers, unfortunately the litigation
costs for defending the carburetor in court are unsustainable for a
small business such as Precision.

Therefore, as of November 1, 2007, Precision Airmotive LLC has been
left with no choice but to cease production and support of its float
carburetor product line.

We are working with the engine manufacturers and others in the
industry in an attempt to minimize the impact on general aviation and
to provide future support for this product line. There is a
substantial quantity of parts and carburetors stocked at our
distributors which should be sufficient to support the industry for a
short time.

On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 03:43:50 GMT, "Cy Galley"
wrote:

My question is Why oh Why didn't you check the carb screws before to put in
on your plane?


You can't. The screws have bend up tabs that are bent up to keep the
hex head screws from backing out. The only way you would know the case
was loose would be if it were so loose you could see the gap in the
seam, or bend the tabs down and then tighten the screws, and then bend
the tabs back up. But who would think that would be necessary with a
newly rebuilt carb shipped from the manufacturer? I think they did
tighten the screws, but the threads were worn out inside the carb
body, the screw threads slipped. Wasn't my fault! It was carb
manufacturers for shipping such a sloppy piece of crap.