Las Vegas NV Cortez 1 VFR Arrival/Class B Airspace

Larry Dighera wrote:

I think the confusion in this thread is a result of not knowing what
ATC actually said. Perhaps Mr. Lee could provide that. Did ATC say,
"Cleared for the Cortez 1 VFR arrival? Did ATC say "cleared" at all?

Actually Larry I was trying to resolve any misunderstanding BEFORE I
fly there. I just posted some info about someone who did this
recently but realize that my statement of wording is second hand and
may contain errors.

Your request makes sense.

Ron Lee

Larry Dighera wrote:
On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 15:20:21 -0600, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote in
:


wrote in message
...

Hey, you go ahead and fly into Bravo without hearing those magic
words. No skin off my back.

Like I said, I will be listening for those words, and if I dont' get
them I will ask. I require it in my flying, you can do what you want.

You don't stick to standard phraseology, then shame on you.

'nuf said.


If you've already received a clearance that grants entry into Class B
airspace those words are superfluous. Doesn't make any difference if you're
VFR or IFR.


I believe the point here is, that it's incumbent on the VFR PIC to
explicitly _REQUEST_ clearance into Class B airspace every time
(instead of saying "with you" or some such):

"Las Vegas Approach, Cherokee 1234 request clearance into Class
Bravo via the Cortez 1 Transition."

Except that is -NOT- what one would do, it would be:

Las Vegas Approach, Cherokee 1234, three thousand five hundred feet,
Wash Marina, request Cortez route.

The start and end points of a transition route are defined on the TAC.

You are -NOT- requesting entry into the class B, you are requesting
to fly the Cortez transition route.


--
Jim Pennino

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Ron Lee wrote:
I am happy with this answer now. Another VFR pilot who was cleared on
the Cortez 1 transition route a month ago asked if he was cleared to
enter Class B (as I probably would have). He was chided by the
controller that he had already been cleared for the Cortez 1 arrival.

Thus I am confident that approval by ATC to fly the Cortez 1
transition route also carries with it approval to enter Class B
airspace.

Ron Lee

Which is -EXACTLY- what one would expect if they were to actually
read the damn TAC.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

wrote:

Ron Lee wrote:
I am happy with this answer now. Another VFR pilot who was cleared on
the Cortez 1 transition route a month ago asked if he was cleared to
enter Class B (as I probably would have). He was chided by the
controller that he had already been cleared for the Cortez 1 arrival.

Thus I am confident that approval by ATC to fly the Cortez 1
transition route also carries with it approval to enter Class B
airspace.

Ron Lee

Which is -EXACTLY- what one would expect if they were to actually
read the damn TAC.


Perhaps. I will admit to not knowing everything and since I have
never flown this type transition route I elected to get clarification
rather than do something stupid as my genetics can predispose me to
do.

Ron Lee

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

I'm not familiar with that arrival, but you don't have to hear "Cleared to
enter Class B airspace" if you're operating under another clearance that
meets the requirement above.


Like "Cleared to the Las Vegas Airport as filed, climb and maintain 3000
expect 10000 ten minutes after departure, departure frequency 125.05,
squawk 0412..."

wrote:
On Dec 22, 2:25 pm, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:

Then you must believe you must also hear the "magic words" when operating
IFR.

Nope. I am cleared from point A to point B unless otherwise advised
by ATC when picking up my clearance. That don't exist under VFR.

That's the beauty of IFR, all airspace is transparent.

Allen

Boy oh boy, now talk about the stupidity of being cavalier with your
ticket. Steve is a 100% correct, and you are dangerously wrong.
There are a number of guys who busted P areas, TFRs, and the DC
area airspace who were operating IFR. Airspace is not transparent.
An IFR clearance is not authorization to fly willy nilly on the way
to your destination.

On Dec 22, 9:05*pm, Ron Natalie wrote:

Boy oh boy, now talk about the stupidity of being cavalier with your
ticket. *Steve is a 100% correct, and you are dangerously wrong.
There are a number of guys who busted P areas, TFRs, and the DC
area airspace who were operating IFR. * Airspace is not transparent.
An IFR clearance is not authorization to fly willy nilly on the way
to your destination.

Airspace last I knew was defined was by A (which I will never see) B,
C, D, E (G is uncontrolled)

IFR meets ADIZ standards since you are squawking and talking. That is
the foundation for ADIZ. FRZ is a different issue, and generally that
is busted by VFR, not IFR flights THAT I HAVE SEEN.

Therefore all of the above are "transparent" as I said on an IFR
flight plan. Once I receive my clearance, I am cleared all the way
through unless otherwise dictated by ATC. Nothing calvier about what
I said.

Can't do much on pop up TFRs, but yes, you do need to be aware of them
as well as restricted areas especially for flight planning purposes.
And prohibited areas go in part with flight planning. You fly victor
highways to stay clear of them.

I have filed quite a few times GPS direct from KMBO to KOWB which
takes me directly over a restricted area. Fort Cambell folks are
fully aware of the area and will vector me around that area. If they
haven't and I see I am headed to it, I will ask if I am cleared
through it. One can be cleared through a restricted area by ATC.

I have flown several times up near Camp David (both normal and
expanded) and IFR, you get routed on the victor highways, no big deal,
and that area is not a factor even when expanded. ADIZ again, you are
on an IFR flight plan, you are all set and ADIZ is transparent.

You don't have to get request clearance into Bravo, You don't have to
initiate a call into Charlie or Delta airspace, that is done by
virtual of you being on the IFR flight plan on handoffs. Sounds like
transparent airspace to me.

Also MOA's if you get down to it are transparent since you can't fly
through them when they are hot on IFR, and ATC will let you know. And
MOA's only become a factor when you dont' file victor highways. For
me, I fly around MOA's all the time, staying below the floor between
KMBO and KEKY. I get GPS direct approved all the time. MAA is 7000,
if I need higher, I go victor highways. To date, I haven't needed
higher. No big deal, and again transparent insofar as me picking up
my clearance as I would have planned accordingly. 7000 is mine for
the 168NM and 6000 on the return unless dictated differently by ATC.

The only merit to your post is TFR's,

Flight planning takes care of the rest of the issues therefore there
is NOTHING dangerously wrong in my thoughts.

Allen

Ron Lee wrote:
wrote:

Ron Lee wrote:
I am happy with this answer now. Another VFR pilot who was cleared on
the Cortez 1 transition route a month ago asked if he was cleared to
enter Class B (as I probably would have). He was chided by the
controller that he had already been cleared for the Cortez 1 arrival.

Thus I am confident that approval by ATC to fly the Cortez 1
transition route also carries with it approval to enter Class B
airspace.

Ron Lee

Which is -EXACTLY- what one would expect if they were to actually
read the damn TAC.


Perhaps. I will admit to not knowing everything and since I have
never flown this type transition route I elected to get clarification
rather than do something stupid as my genetics can predispose me to
do.

I can understand that.

My mode of operation is to respond "Unfamiliar, you want me to..." when
I have doubts as to exactly what ATC/tower/whoever wants/expects me to
do.

In my experience ATC is much friendlier if you admit limited ignorance
about fine details and totally unforgiving if you did no homework before
launching.

--
Jim Pennino

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"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...

Okay. However IFR Standard Terminal Arrivals usually come with a
clearance. I found the IFR procedure plates he
http://flightaware.com/resources/air...AS/ALL/all/pdf but I
haven't been able to find the VFR procedures, have you?


They're on the TAC.



Surely there are phraseologies for clearances into Class Bravo
airspace than "cleared into Class Bravo airspace".


There are.

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
m...

Like "Cleared to the Las Vegas Airport as filed, climb and maintain 3000
expect 10000 ten minutes after departure, departure frequency 125.05,
squawk 0412..."


There ya go.