Flying in Germany

http://jimsladesairlines.com/beil.html

I've known Harmut from many years ago when he was flying his Ercoupe
from the Bay Area. He returned to Germany a few years ago and wrote
this report from his native land on the differences between US and
German GA.
--
Everybody's worried about stopping terrorism. Well, there's a really
easy way; stop participating in it.
~ Noam Chomsky

I've known Harmut from many years ago when he was flying his Ercoupe
from the Bay Area. *He returned to Germany a few years ago and wrote
this report from his native land on the differences between US and
German GA.

That interesting. I lived in Berlin for a year or so. I'm not
surprised at the level of regulation or the fact that German law in
practice trusts "foreigners" more than Germans. The once Nazi country
can't be seen as being unwelcoming to non Germans.

Pretty interesting, didn't realize the rules are so bizarre in
Germany. AOPA would probably love to publish this.. with the dollar so
weak, it would be a steal for Europeans and others to come to the US
for flight training.

On Dec 25, 7:02 am, Bob Fry wrote:
http://jimsladesairlines.com/beil.html

I've known Harmut from many years ago when he was flying his Ercoupe
from the Bay Area. He returned to Germany a few years ago and wrote
this report from his native land on the differences between US and
German GA.
--
Everybody's worried about stopping terrorism. Well, there's a really
easy way; stop participating in it.
~ Noam Chomsky

schrieb:
Pretty interesting, didn't realize the rules are so bizarre in
Germany.

this is not only true for Germany.

AOPA would probably love to publish this.. with the dollar so
weak, it would be a steal for Europeans

It was already cheaper back then when the dollar was pretty expensive.

and others to come to the US for flight training.

I know more than 10 people personally who *did* that back then (myself
included [1]) but excluded this country for a couple of years now for
further visits (not only for flying but also for leisure/pleasure).

I know only 2 guys personally who visited in resent years. One was there
for a type rating. It was OK, but he felt not really (hmm, what is the
correct word for this situation?) happy anymore - compared to his
earlier visits. The other one had to visit for business purpose (he is a
university professor in chemistry) and he had some bizzare experiences
and stories to tell.

#m

[1] I did it in 2002 (and earlier, too). Whith the money I spent then
I'd today fly probably double the hours.

Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:
Bottom line: Most of the facts are correct, but his viewpoint is very
"American" and not very flexible. He makes it sound as if flying here
is extremely hard or difficult to achive and as if the rules were a
nightmare. Fact is that it's quite affordable and comparatively easy if
you set your mind to it, and the rules (of which some are quite silly I
agree) aren't really such a nuisance, and can be avoided if you know
how to.

Interesting to see the different viewpoints - appreciated.

I suppose one way to compare affordability and ease of acquiring a license
or certificate is to compare the fraction of population that have acquired
them. For the U.S. I believe about 1 in 500 people have a pilot certificate
(~0.2%). (The FAA published stats on number of active certificate holders
on its web site.) Are there numbers available for other countries like
Germany?

Wolfgang Schwanke wrote in news:5td6kcF1crpp2U1
@mid.uni-berlin.de:

Bob Fry wrote in
:

http://jimsladesairlines.com/beil.html

I've known Harmut from many years ago when he was flying his Ercoupe
from the Bay Area. He returned to Germany a few years ago and wrote
this report from his native land on the differences between US and
German GA.

Interesting page. I live in Berlin and fly from airports around the
city
(3-axis microlights), but I have no "American" background of any kind.
Maybe some comments from another perspective are interesting for the
group.

First of all most of what he writes is correct. Just a couple of minor
corrections or different opinions/perspectives from me.

(quotes from the above page)

Even though in the mid-sixties Germans started flying again and the
German Lufthansa began flying routes and lines

Make that mid-fifties

Berlin was excluded from German flying; only foreign airlines were
allowed to service the 3 airports.

Make that: only French, British or American airlines

When I now fly around Berlin, it is obvious that it would have been
too easy for anyone to just take off anywhere in East Germany and
land
in West Berlin in a blink of an eye. So East Berliners were not to
fly

Almost but not entirely correct. Besides commercial (Interflug) and
military (obvious) there was General Aviation in East Germany. Most
importantly the agricultural flyers, which were used to spray the
large
collectivised crop fields with insecticides and fertilizers. There
were
probably hundreds of small airstrips amidst the crop fields for them,
most of which are now abandoned, but some of which survive as regular
airports. They used mainly Polish Wilgas. Some of those are still
around
and are now used for towing gliders. But there was also (very limited)
recreational aviation, organised through the "GST", a state-run youth
organisation. The only activities were gliding and parachuting, no
motorised aviation for leisure.

About the danger of escape: Gliders having limited range, the "risk"
was
probably deemed low. However there was (at least) one case of a glider
pilot escaping. He took off from this http://www.flugplatz-
saarmund.de/
small grass strip approx 20 km southwest of West Berlin and landed in
Gatow. That was sometime in the 1970s, Saarmund was closed in the
aftermath. It was reopened post 1990.

The US Air Force handed the Tempelhof airport over to Germany in 1993
and one year later we had the first Lufthansa airliner land in
Berlin.

The first Lufthansa airliner - and the first German GA into Berlin -
landed on October 3, 1990, because that day formal occupation ended
and
German control of the entire Berlin and East German airspace resumed.
The 4 Allies (of which the US were only one, remember) left in 1994,
and
some of them stayed around as airspace controlers during those 4 years
(and some even longer as civilian employees of the German control
authority), but as occupiers they had no say any more.

A lot of airports around the city that used to belong to the military
were handed over to the public

True for many, but some other GA fields around Berlin are former crop
strips (see above), and a few others were launched completely from
scratch.

My brother is not allowed to fly outside of his country unless he
passes an additional exam that proves proficiency in mastering
aviation language in English.

True

Passing that exam is not easy

Well. I'm currently preparing for the same test, after having passed
the
German license some years ago (where I witnessed the test for those
who
did English). It's easy enough.

since it involves actual talking to the examiners,

Yes, but so does the German test

retired ATC specialists

still active ones, to the best of my knowledge

that proudly insist on the use of a British aviation English.

Rubbish. The "English" I hear on the radio here all the time has a
heavy
German accent, including from controllers. Nobody cares about
"correct"
pronunciation, much less any specific national version of English.
What
matters is clarity. For example we're supposed to pronounce th like t
to
avoid confusion with s or f - very non-British I think.

There may be differences between American radio phraseology and
"European" (or perhaps "rest of the world"?) phraseology. I'm no
expert
on these differences, but I seem to remember there were discussions
about them earlier. But those differences don't originate in the UK.
For
all I know they might originate in the US.

A new German pilot is also not allowed to fly into class Charlie
airspace [...] Therefore one has to get an extra license, the CVFR
license

True for licences issued before 2003 but not now. The current PPLs are
issued according to JAR rules, and they include an airspace C
permission. (airspace A and B don't exist here, so they're not an
issue). The special CVFR permit has since ceased to exist.

For flying at night, you need -- you guessed it -- a special license.

Still true

Then, there is the tower. Germans are in love with towers. They can
not imagine an airport without one, so even the non-towered airports
are having a tower.

Except it's not called a tower then.

And on every tower sits a governmental authorized "Flugleiter" ,
required by law ; without him the airports would be unauthorized to
be
used.

There are initiatives to allow unmanned airports, and there are a
couple
where it's practiced "experimentally".

(about "terror" prevention)

Most of what he says is true, but it was only introduced after 911-
2001
(which also triggered a scare here). Yes some of what we read from the
US in this context is even more bizarre, so what are you all wondering
about?

Germany does not treat airports as part of the public transportation
system, believing that airports should finance themselves.

Not true. Many public airports are heavily subsidised for the sake of
attracting business to the region and/or as a public service. This
does
not go for privately run ones of course.

They also don't see the airway system as a matter for the government;
it should fund itself off the fees.

Wuite distorted. Until a few years ago, it was a matter of the
government (and still is legally). What happened then was
deregulation,
the national control got privatised, much to the chagrin of many
people. That's not so much a "German" vs "US" way of doing things, but
ultracapitalism vs. common sense. I think you folks have some similar
problems over there.

It's 6 to 10 Euros per landing on a non towered airport, depending on
your aircraft's noise certificate.

I pay 2 to 3 EUR per landing, but microlights tend to be cheaper.

They also avoid leaving the country because that requires a flight
plan and landing at customs airports in Germany and France, for
example, where you are facing lots of fees (landing, customs, plus
ATC).

You don't have to do that inside the Schengen area, which France is
part of.

To identify positively who is generating what costs, the authorities
are pushing for mode S transponders

The assumed reason is a projection.

While any German can take his car and drive to Paris without being
asked one question, we pilots need to have the second class
communication certificate first, file for a flight plan, land at a
customs airport in Germany and France respectively

Only partially true, see Schengen

and you can't even fly to a Paris airport then, because Paris is
surrounded by class Alpha airspace

Haven't I been reading complaints about restricted flying around
Washington DC here, and some whatchumacallit military zones that crop
up in the US in all sorts of places?

Meanwhile I can fly into most of Berlin. Actually it was all of
Berlin,
until in 2005 a GA pilot decided to crash his aircraft in front of the
German parliament. Turned out he had killed his wife the day before.
They installed a circular no-fly-zone around the parliament which
includes most of the city centre afterwards. Wouldn't the American
government have reacted similarly to a comparable event?

(Weather)

It is a governmental institution that is half privatized to
reduce costs to the tax payer.

And to generate income for some people .. True, but many nations have
similar idiotic policies. I hope they go away soon.


unless you're turning 65; from then on Germans need to get that
second
class medical every 6 month!

I think that rule was undone some time ago.

A young person must be very dedicated to go through the long and
costly process of getting a pilot license.

Is that different from your country?

All German airports are having some noise restrictions in place.

I don't know what he's talking about here.

Especially on week-ends where I with the Ercoupe can't do touch and
goes on most of the airports. I have to wait at least one hour for
another take-off.

Huh?? He should look at some other airports to do touch & gos.


Bottom line: Most of the facts are correct, but his viewpoint is very
"American" and not very flexible. He makes it sound as if flying here
is extremely hard or difficult to achive and as if the rules were a
nightmare. Fact is that it's quite affordable and comparatively easy
if
you set your mind to it, and the rules (of which some are quite silly
I
agree) aren't really such a nuisance, and can be avoided if you know
how to.


Easy if you're German. If you're not, you're in for one long argument
with everyone from the border police (who once took a great interest in
my cafeteria card) to ATC, AIS, customs and the guy you try and buy a
beer from after you finish flying.


I once did a flight test on an airplane Lufty had done a C check on.
You'd have thought we were launching the Mars shuttle. The briefing to
do a relatively simple 30 min flight test took most of the morning. I
did another at Bordeaux years later. Two Gallic shrugs and an hour later
we were done with twice the manuevers accomplished.

And bring several pens, you'll run them all dry sgining things.

"Never argue with a German if you're tired" ~ Jefferson Airplane


Bertie

Jim Logajan schrieb:

I suppose one way to compare affordability and ease of acquiring a license
or certificate is to compare the fraction of population that have acquired
them. For the U.S. I believe about 1 in 500 people have a pilot certificate
(~0.2%). (The FAA published stats on number of active certificate holders
on its web site.) Are there numbers available for other countries like
Germany?

I don't know the number, but whatever it is, it doesn't tell much. Or,
it rather tells much about the different interests. Face it, most people
in Germany are interested in different things than most people in the
USA. E.g. soccer is probably the most popular sport in Germany, while
baseball is pretty much inexistant. Or, to stay with aviation: While
there may be less power pilots in Germany than in the USA, there are
many more glider pilots, probably even by the rough number, but
certainly by the percentage of the population. For most Germans, private
flying is just a sport and not a means of transport, for many reasons
other than money or regulation.

"MH" == Martin Hotze writes:

MH I know more than 10 people personally who *did* that back then
MH (myself included [1]) but excluded this country for a couple
MH of years now for further visits (not only for flying but also
MH for leisure/pleasure).

Hey, c'mon down! Well, come on over. California is friendly :-)
That's what you get for visiting those fly-over red states. We can
start repairing the damage about 13 months from now.
--
Don't try to teach a pig to sing, it can't be done and it only ticks
off the pig.
~ Robert Heinlein

"WS" == Wolfgang Schwanke writes:

WS Haven't I been reading complaints about restricted flying
WS around Washington DC here, and some whatchumacallit military
WS zones that crop up in the US in all sorts of places?

Surely. I myself was caught in one of these "pop-up" Temporary Flight
Restrictions (TFRs) almost 2 years ago...only because our Vice,
Cheney, dropped in for a day to raise campaign money. These so-called
VIP TFRs are most annoying. Other TFRs, like for fires or other
disasters, make sense and can often be inferred while flying. For a while
Bush wanted to criminalize TFR violations! But that was shot down.
Only 13 more months of our own Nazi regime.
--
Do not mind anything that anyone tells you about anyone else. Judge
everyone and everything for yourself.
~ Henry James

I know more than 10 people personally who *did* that back then (myself
included [1]) but excluded this country for a couple of years now for
further visits (not only for flying but also for leisure/pleasure).


Why so? I think the US is a pretty awesome place for leisure
activities. Germany is too but we have autobahns here (in the sky) ;-)