Next club purchase...

Our club currently flies a 172R and 172SP as trainers and a Diamond DA40 as
our 3rd plane. We've put tons of students thru our 172s and are finally
getting some good usage on our Diamond. We've started "long distance"
planning on our next planes. We'd like to get a good low wing trainer like
an Archer and we'd like to get a high performance plane to get complex
ratings. For the complex plane, we're thinking we like something that can
do 150kts or better that we can do a nice panel upgrade in - say a G540
stack and some other upgrades but still something that the insurance
wouldn't kill us... As we're near the mountains, turbo would be nice but
would incur some other problems with training, etc. That said, we were
leaning towards a Turbo Arrow III... Any suggestions?

Robert Barker wrote:
That said, we were
leaning towards a Turbo Arrow III... Any suggestions?


Without knowing your club members and their proclivities, I would impose
some fairly significant checkout requirements on the turbo plane, say 10
hrs in type or turbocharged complex planes, or a significant total time
amount (either/or or both) in order to keep the archer from being used
as a primary trainer or being inadvertently abused by those fresh out of
primary training.

For a N/A arrow, my club required 10 in type or 25 multi plus a 2 hr
checkout (could be inclusive of the type or multi hours), plus 100 TT.
As a 44 hr private pilot, I had a little ways to go before I could take
the plane..

The 10 hrs in type can be multipurpose, say, training towards commercial
or instrument. While you dont have to do instrument training in a
complex, I found that the Arrow was an excellent platform for doing just
such a thing..

When trimmed for 90 kts inbound on the ILS, when you intercepted the
Glideslope, dropping the gear tended to put you right on the correct
approach descent profile, with minimal trimming or fiddling with power.

Dave

In article ,
"Robert Barker" wrote:

Our club currently flies a 172R and 172SP as trainers and a Diamond DA40 as
our 3rd plane. We've put tons of students thru our 172s and are finally
getting some good usage on our Diamond. We've started "long distance"
planning on our next planes. We'd like to get a good low wing trainer like
an Archer and we'd like to get a high performance plane to get complex
ratings. For the complex plane, we're thinking we like something that can
do 150kts or better that we can do a nice panel upgrade in - say a G540
stack and some other upgrades but still something that the insurance
wouldn't kill us... As we're near the mountains, turbo would be nice but
would incur some other problems with training, etc. That said, we were
leaning towards a Turbo Arrow III... Any suggestions?

Cessna 182.
Not 150 kts, but fast enough.
The ability to haul a load is more important than speed.
Four full adults plus luggage.
I don't worry about the ability to fly long distances in a single leg, I
have reached the age where my bladder controls how long/far I fly.

You cannot get the Complex Endorsement required of the Commercial PTS in the
C-182, unless you find a C-182 RG. Then you can have Complex and High
Performance (HP not required for Commercial PTS)
BT

"John Smith" wrote in message news:jsmith-

Cessna 182.
Not 150 kts, but fast enough.
The ability to haul a load is more important than speed.
Four full adults plus luggage.
I don't worry about the ability to fly long distances in a single leg, I
have reached the age where my bladder controls how long/far I fly.

John Smith wrote:
In article ,
"Robert Barker" wrote:

Our club currently flies a 172R and 172SP as trainers and a Diamond DA40 as
our 3rd plane. We've put tons of students thru our 172s and are finally
getting some good usage on our Diamond. We've started "long distance"
planning on our next planes. We'd like to get a good low wing trainer like
an Archer and we'd like to get a high performance plane to get complex
ratings. For the complex plane, we're thinking we like something that can
do 150kts or better that we can do a nice panel upgrade in - say a G540
stack and some other upgrades but still something that the insurance
wouldn't kill us... As we're near the mountains, turbo would be nice but
would incur some other problems with training, etc. That said, we were
leaning towards a Turbo Arrow III... Any suggestions?

Cessna 182.
Not 150 kts, but fast enough.
The ability to haul a load is more important than speed.
Four full adults plus luggage.
I don't worry about the ability to fly long distances in a single leg, I
have reached the age where my bladder controls how long/far I fly.

What part of "complex" didn't you understand?

On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 07:53:07 -0400, Matt Whiting wrote:

What part of "complex" didn't you understand?

The part where you think it describes your brain.
--
http://tinyurl.com/38zr4j

"Robert Barker" wrote in message
...
Our club currently flies a 172R and 172SP as trainers and a Diamond DA40
as our 3rd plane. We've put tons of students thru our 172s and are
finally getting some good usage on our Diamond. We've started "long
distance" planning on our next planes. We'd like to get a good low wing
trainer like an Archer and we'd like to get a high performance plane to
get complex ratings. For the complex plane, we're thinking we like
something that can do 150kts or better that we can do a nice panel upgrade
in - say a G540 stack and some other upgrades but still something that the
insurance wouldn't kill us... As we're near the mountains, turbo would be
nice but would incur some other problems with training, etc. That said,
we were leaning towards a Turbo Arrow III... Any suggestions?

It sounds like your primary focus is training. That being said, what you
really need is a complex aircraft because presently you don't have one that
people can get their commercial rating. HP is irelevant towards the complex
rating as it's not needed. The HP endorsement really doesn't do anything
for you from a training perspective. A HP endorsement can generally be
obtained with a couple of hours of instruction, so buying a HP aircraft
solely for the intention of allowing people to pick up the endorsement
doesn't make a lot of sense.

I would highly caution against getting a turbo in a club environment. The
only way I would ever own a turbo is if I owned the plane exclusively or had
one or two partners that I was VERY confident in their engine management
abilities. Throwing a turbo aircraft into a big mix of 172 and DA40 pilots
is asking for trouble and big maintenance bills.

A Cardinal RG might be your best bet, although it's not going to do 150kts
it will come close. They make very good club planes. The same goes for an
Arrow II, although it would be a few kts slower still. A Bonanza might not
be a bad bet if you can find the right one. A 182RG would be quite nice as
a club plane and fits most of your requirements. It would also be a fairly
easy transition to those pilots familiar with the 172SP. I'm not sure if
you can put the Pponk conversion in a 182RG, but that might be a great
option if you can find a 182RG with a run out engine and then do the
conversion. I do know a straight leg Pponk 182 will get you over all but
the tallest mountains and is the next best thing to having a turbo.

In a previous article, Dave S said:
For a N/A arrow, my club required 10 in type or 25 multi plus a 2 hr
checkout (could be inclusive of the type or multi hours), plus 100 TT.
As a 44 hr private pilot, I had a little ways to go before I could take
the plane..

Our club had a normally asparated Lance. We required 200 hours TT and 10
hours in type, or 2 hours if you had more than 25 complex already.

At one point the insurance company was talking about requiring an
instrument rating. But we got rid of the plane before that happened - the
engine was run out, and only a couple of us were flying it.

--
Paul Tomblin http://blog.xcski.com/
Remember, "close" counts in horse-shoes, hand-grenades and nuclear warfare;
but in spamming, it's considered unnecessary precision.
-- Alun Jones

In article ,
Matt Whiting wrote:

John Smith wrote:
In article ,
"Robert Barker" wrote:

Our club currently flies a 172R and 172SP as trainers and a Diamond DA40
as
our 3rd plane. We've put tons of students thru our 172s and are finally
getting some good usage on our Diamond. We've started "long distance"
planning on our next planes. We'd like to get a good low wing trainer
like
an Archer and we'd like to get a high performance plane to get complex
ratings. For the complex plane, we're thinking we like something that can
do 150kts or better that we can do a nice panel upgrade in - say a G540
stack and some other upgrades but still something that the insurance
wouldn't kill us... As we're near the mountains, turbo would be nice but
would incur some other problems with training, etc. That said, we were
leaning towards a Turbo Arrow III... Any suggestions?

Cessna 182.
Not 150 kts, but fast enough.
The ability to haul a load is more important than speed.
Four full adults plus luggage.
I don't worry about the ability to fly long distances in a single leg, I
have reached the age where my bladder controls how long/far I fly.

What part of "complex" didn't you understand?

The part where I missed it.
Go for an Arrow II or a C172RG "Cutlass".

John Smith wrote:
In article ,
Matt Whiting wrote:

John Smith wrote:
In article ,
"Robert Barker" wrote:

Our club currently flies a 172R and 172SP as trainers and a Diamond DA40
as
our 3rd plane. We've put tons of students thru our 172s and are finally
getting some good usage on our Diamond. We've started "long distance"
planning on our next planes. We'd like to get a good low wing trainer
like
an Archer and we'd like to get a high performance plane to get complex
ratings. For the complex plane, we're thinking we like something that can
do 150kts or better that we can do a nice panel upgrade in - say a G540
stack and some other upgrades but still something that the insurance
wouldn't kill us... As we're near the mountains, turbo would be nice but
would incur some other problems with training, etc. That said, we were
leaning towards a Turbo Arrow III... Any suggestions?
Cessna 182.
Not 150 kts, but fast enough.
The ability to haul a load is more important than speed.
Four full adults plus luggage.
I don't worry about the ability to fly long distances in a single leg, I
have reached the age where my bladder controls how long/far I fly.
What part of "complex" didn't you understand?

The part where I missed it.
Go for an Arrow II or a C172RG "Cutlass".

Now you're talking!

Matt