Do CAP members salute?

They're supposed to, but in fact a large percentage of CAP personell are as
crazy as bedbugs and are only there because they're not qualified to be a
security gaurd in a mall.

Bertie

I hate to admit it but Bertie is right on with this one..

I tried the local CAP to be helpful, find and hopefully save a
life. Turned out they are a group of military wanna be's who have
control of a AirForce owned plane and dictate who can play in their
sandbox. First, that plane belongs to ALL of us, they have strick
rules like, " a member needs to be height/weight proportionate. The
state commander was a walking heart attack and at my first and only
SAREX, 90% of the group was 300 lbs +. So much for rules G. The last
straw was their overwhelming desire for protocal, If I am going to
risk my life looking for missing people and planes I would expect them
to respect the general population and give some leeway in the fact
that all volunteer citizans don't have time to go home, get dressed in
their approved monkey suits and meet at the office to start a search.
Hell by that time the party we are looking for are dead !!! And look
at their safety record... Dismal at best. If I am going to get killed
it sure as hell ain't gonna be by some uniform wearing low time
assholes..... Let's see. the Wyoming wing of the Cival Air Patrol has
in the last couple of years has killed 4 humans, destroyed two
perfectly good planes, both by total stupidity.. I have been flying
and have yet to even put a single scratch on anything but I seem to be
not qualified to fly their,-- oops, our planes. To be fair there is a
few good guys and gals in the CAP, but,,,,,,,,the VAST majority
though are as Bertie puts it " crazy as bedbugs"

rant off.

On Sat, 20 Sep 2008 17:14:35 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

... give some leeway in the fact
that all volunteer citizans don't have time to go home, get dressed in
their approved monkey suits and meet at the office to start a search.

It's been ~25 years since I've been a member, but I'll chime in with one point I
remember: CAP's accident insurance only covered you during searches when you
were in uniform. I flew my first ~225 hours in CAP airplanes (Bird Dog, L-16,
Citabria, L-18), and only wore my uniform when it was an actual CAP function.
By the time I quit, though, they were requiring everyone to wear a uniform
whenever flying a CAP airplane.

IIRC, CAP's "jumpsuit" outfit was intended to allow members to be "in uniform"
without requiring them to conform to the height/weight/haircut standards of the
Air Force duds.

Ron Wanttaja

wrote in message
...



They're supposed to, but in fact a large percentage of CAP personell are
as
crazy as bedbugs and are only there because they're not qualified to be a
security gaurd in a mall.

Bertie

I hate to admit it but Bertie is right on with this one..

I tried the local CAP to be helpful, find and hopefully save a
life. Turned out they are a group of military wanna be's who have
control of a AirForce owned plane and dictate who can play in their
sandbox. First, that plane belongs to ALL of us, they have strick
rules like, " a member needs to be height/weight proportionate. The
state commander was a walking heart attack and at my first and only
SAREX, 90% of the group was 300 lbs +. So much for rules G. The last
straw was their overwhelming desire for protocal, If I am going to
risk my life looking for missing people and planes I would expect them
to respect the general population and give some leeway in the fact
that all volunteer citizans don't have time to go home, get dressed in
their approved monkey suits and meet at the office to start a search.
Hell by that time the party we are looking for are dead !!! And look
at their safety record... Dismal at best. If I am going to get killed
it sure as hell ain't gonna be by some uniform wearing low time
assholes..... Let's see. the Wyoming wing of the Cival Air Patrol has
in the last couple of years has killed 4 humans, destroyed two
perfectly good planes, both by total stupidity.. I have been flying
and have yet to even put a single scratch on anything but I seem to be
not qualified to fly their,-- oops, our planes. To be fair there is a
few good guys and gals in the CAP, but,,,,,,,,the VAST majority
though are as Bertie puts it " crazy as bedbugs"

On the other side of that coin there are those who expect to join CAP and
think they have a "right" to start flying missions the next day because they
have X number of ratings or whatever, or they are simply a low time pilot
who wants to fly CAP planes on the cheap, yet contribute nothing to the
organization. Or they simply join up one day and expect the organization to
bend around them rather than wanting to be part of a team. Many of them
wind up like you and quit. Good ridance, I say. CAP has over 500 aircraft
in their fleet, so it should come as no surprise that they are going to
auger one in now and then. The nature of the business involves some level
of risk. Of the crashes you mentioned, all involved very experienced and
competent pilots. Perhaps they did do something stupid, but if you think
you are smarter than they were, or a better pilot, you have the type of
attitude that often leads to a smoking crater at the end of your flying
career.

"Viperdoc" wrote:
I have been at various airshows, flyins, etc where CAP cadets and
adults were present in uniform.

As the civilian auxiliary of the Air Force are they expected to salute
officers etc? Are members of the Air Force supposed to salute CAP
members of higher rank?

Walking around at these functions it is sometimes hard to tell who
rates a salute or not.

Just salute the people who are paying the bills for the event. They are
almost certainly not in uniform.

"The great thing about being a civilian is that you outrank people like
generals and colonels." - line from an episode of "The Rockford Files".

On Sep 20, 1:39*pm, "Viperdoc" wrote:
I have been at various airshows, flyins, etc where CAP cadets and adults
were present in uniform.

As the civilian auxiliary of the Air Force are they expected to salute
officers etc? Are members of the Air Force supposed to salute CAP members of
higher rank?

Walking around at these functions it is sometimes hard to tell who rates a
salute or not.

Suppose to. Remember that when you are on an AF base 90% of those on
the base have no idea what CAP is and assume you are active duty. The
uniform differences are very slight.

-Robert

On Sep 20, 6:50*pm, "Mike" nospam@ microsoft.com wrote:
wrote in message

...







They're supposed to, but in fact a large percentage of CAP personell are
as
crazy as bedbugs and are only there because they're not qualified to be a
security gaurd in a mall.

Bertie

I hate to admit it but Bertie is right on with this one..

I tried the local CAP to be helpful, find and hopefully save a
life. * Turned out they are a group of military wanna be's who have
control of a AirForce owned plane and dictate who can play in their
sandbox. First, that plane belongs to ALL of us, they have strick
rules like, " a member needs to be height/weight proportionate. The
state commander was a walking heart attack and at my first and only
SAREX, 90% of the group was 300 lbs +. So much for rules G. The last
straw was their overwhelming desire for protocal, If I am going to
risk my life looking for missing people and planes I would expect them
to respect the general population and give some leeway in the fact
that all volunteer citizans don't have time to go home, get dressed in
their approved monkey suits and meet at the office to start a search.
Hell by that time the party we are looking for are dead !!! *And look
at their safety record... Dismal at best. If I am going to get killed
it sure as hell ain't gonna be by some uniform wearing low time
assholes..... Let's see. *the Wyoming wing of the Cival Air Patrol has
in the last couple of years has killed 4 humans, destroyed two
perfectly good planes, both by total stupidity.. I have been flying
and have yet to even put a single scratch on anything but I seem to be
not qualified to fly their,-- oops, our planes. To be fair there is a
few good guys and gals in the CAP, *but,,,,,,,,the VAST majority
though are as Bertie puts it " crazy as bedbugs"

risk. Of the crashes you mentioned, all involved very experienced and
competent pilots. Perhaps they did do something stupid, but if you think
you are smarter than they were, or a better pilot, you have the type of
attitude that often leads to a smoking crater at the end of your flying
career.-


You obviously are not very well informed. The first fatal accident in
N9928H was flown by Fletcher Anderson, who wrote a book on safe flying
and mountian flying. This was not his first accident either. While
flying through the Snake river canyon south of Jackson Wy he hit a
cable that crosses the river. A cable they use to measure the river
level. That said cable was 17.3 feet above the surface. The altitude
he was supposed to be at in that area was around 4000 feet higher,
competent ?? you better start smoking something better. The other CAP
pilot was supposably a CAP mountian fury course instructor who spun in
and took two other lives with him, and started a forest fire. That was
the only thing he did correctly though. They found the wreckage and
bodies by following the smoke. Competent ? highly improbable... I have
been flying almost 30 years, owned several planes and didn't join the
CAP for a free ride or to fly missions the next day. I have my own
plane and in fact my own airport, I don't need the CAP to leach off of
for my flying enjoyment, the vast majority of CAP members don't own an
aircraft. ! If you are going to defend the CAP flight safety record
you better inform yourself in a timely matter before making statements
like "very experienced and competent".

Cheers and tailwinds.

wrote in message
...
On Sep 20, 6:50 pm, "Mike" nospam@ microsoft.com wrote:
wrote in message

...







They're supposed to, but in fact a large percentage of CAP personell
are
as
crazy as bedbugs and are only there because they're not qualified to
be a
security gaurd in a mall.

Bertie

I hate to admit it but Bertie is right on with this one..

I tried the local CAP to be helpful, find and hopefully save a
life. Turned out they are a group of military wanna be's who have
control of a AirForce owned plane and dictate who can play in their
sandbox. First, that plane belongs to ALL of us, they have strick
rules like, " a member needs to be height/weight proportionate. The
state commander was a walking heart attack and at my first and only
SAREX, 90% of the group was 300 lbs +. So much for rules G. The last
straw was their overwhelming desire for protocal, If I am going to
risk my life looking for missing people and planes I would expect them
to respect the general population and give some leeway in the fact
that all volunteer citizans don't have time to go home, get dressed in
their approved monkey suits and meet at the office to start a search.
Hell by that time the party we are looking for are dead !!! And look
at their safety record... Dismal at best. If I am going to get killed
it sure as hell ain't gonna be by some uniform wearing low time
assholes..... Let's see. the Wyoming wing of the Cival Air Patrol has
in the last couple of years has killed 4 humans, destroyed two
perfectly good planes, both by total stupidity.. I have been flying
and have yet to even put a single scratch on anything but I seem to be
not qualified to fly their,-- oops, our planes. To be fair there is a
few good guys and gals in the CAP, but,,,,,,,,the VAST majority
though are as Bertie puts it " crazy as bedbugs"

risk. Of the crashes you mentioned, all involved very experienced and
competent pilots. Perhaps they did do something stupid, but if you
think
you are smarter than they were, or a better pilot, you have the type of
attitude that often leads to a smoking crater at the end of your flying
career.-


You obviously are not very well informed. The first fatal accident in
N9928H was flown by Fletcher Anderson, who wrote a book on safe flying
and mountian flying. This was not his first accident either. While
flying through the Snake river canyon south of Jackson Wy he hit a
cable that crosses the river. A cable they use to measure the river
level. That said cable was 17.3 feet above the surface. The altitude
he was supposed to be at in that area was around 4000 feet higher,
competent ?? you better start smoking something better. The other CAP
pilot was supposably a CAP mountian fury course instructor who spun in
and took two other lives with him, and started a forest fire. That was
the only thing he did correctly though. They found the wreckage and
bodies by following the smoke. Competent ? highly improbable... I have
been flying almost 30 years, owned several planes and didn't join the
CAP for a free ride or to fly missions the next day. I have my own
plane and in fact my own airport, I don't need the CAP to leach off of
for my flying enjoyment, the vast majority of CAP members don't own an
aircraft. ! If you are going to defend the CAP flight safety record
you better inform yourself in a timely matter before making statements
like "very experienced and competent".

Cheers and tailwinds.

I'm well aware of the details in both crashes. You obviously didn't read
what I wrote very closely. As I said, the people in question may have been
doing something stupid at the time, but guess what? The vast majority of
accidents are caused by pilot error, and the vast majority of those are
caused by doing something stupid at the time. However when you start
thinking you are more "competent" than they were and you would never do
something stupid yourself, is exactly the type of attitude that leads to a
lot of pilots' demise, and regardless of what you think, how many planes or
airports you have owned is irrelevant in that regard. As far as CAP goes, I
find it quite amusing that you try to blame the accidents on CAP. Had both
pilots been following CAP's rules, neither accident would have happened.
And as far as your short lived CAP tenure goes, I see a lot of your type
come and go. For whatever reason, you have a different expectation of CAP
and when CAP doesn't bend to your expectation, you quit and act as if your
quitting is to the detriment of CAP. I can assure you it isn't.

Mike wrote:
come and go. For whatever reason, you have a different expectation of CAP
and when CAP doesn't bend to your expectation, you quit and act as if your
quitting is to the detriment of CAP. I can assure you it isn't.

Actually it is, otherwise why does the CAP keep whining about retention
rates of their members (which is abysmal for some reason...) ? dismissing
any complaint as you just did ("it couldn't possibly be something we did,
these are all quitters, good riddance to them") might not help...

Seriously there are great differences between each unit; if you want a
quick way to make up your mind about a specific one, there is an easy
little test: start a discussion about the good ol' 39-1 (you can find it
online). If a very animated conversation still goes on more than 10mn
later, don't just walk out: run. :-)

--Sylvain

"Sylvain" wrote in message
t...
Mike wrote:
come and go. For whatever reason, you have a different expectation of
CAP
and when CAP doesn't bend to your expectation, you quit and act as if
your
quitting is to the detriment of CAP. I can assure you it isn't.

Actually it is, otherwise why does the CAP keep whining about retention
rates of their members (which is abysmal for some reason...) ? dismissing
any complaint as you just did ("it couldn't possibly be something we did,
these are all quitters, good riddance to them") might not help...

I take the opposite view. Do you really think CAP is going to miss a member
who is nothing more than a liability and wants to do nothing more than
complain? There's lots of CAP members that would not be missed if they
left, and CAP would be a better organization if they did, regardless of any
retention rates you can or can't quote. If CAP loses a member who has been
on board for many years and is a good contributor, then I might be
concerned.

On Sep 21, 10:17*am, "Mike" nospam@ microsoft.com wrote:
wrote in message

...
On Sep 20, 6:50 pm, "Mike" nospam@ microsoft.com wrote:





wrote in message

....

They're supposed to, but in fact a large percentage of CAP personell
are
as
crazy as bedbugs and are only there because they're not qualified to
be a
security gaurd in a mall.

Bertie

I hate to admit it but Bertie is right on with this one..

I tried the local CAP to be helpful, find and hopefully save a
life. Turned out they are a group of military wanna be's who have
control of a AirForce owned plane and dictate who can play in their
sandbox. First, that plane belongs to ALL of us, they have strick
rules like, " a member needs to be height/weight proportionate. The
state commander was a walking heart attack and at my first and only
SAREX, 90% of the group was 300 lbs +. So much for rules G. The last
straw was their overwhelming desire for protocal, If I am going to
risk my life looking for missing people and planes I would expect them
to respect the general population and give some leeway in the fact
that all volunteer citizans don't have time to go home, get dressed in
their approved monkey suits and meet at the office to start a search.
Hell by that time the party we are looking for are dead !!! And look
at their safety record... Dismal at best. If I am going to get killed
it sure as hell ain't gonna be by some uniform wearing low time
assholes..... Let's see. the Wyoming wing of the Cival Air Patrol has
in the last couple of years has killed 4 humans, destroyed two
perfectly good planes, both by total stupidity.. I have been flying
and have yet to even put a single scratch on anything but I seem to be
not qualified to fly their,-- oops, our planes. To be fair there is a
few good guys and gals in the CAP, but,,,,,,,,the VAST majority
though are as Bertie puts it " crazy as bedbugs"

risk. *Of the crashes you mentioned, all involved very experienced and
competent pilots. *Perhaps they did do something stupid, but if you
think
you are smarter than they were, or a better pilot, you have the type of
attitude that often leads to a smoking crater at the end of your flying
career.-

You obviously are not very well informed. *The first fatal accident in
N9928H was flown by Fletcher Anderson, who wrote a book on safe flying
and mountian flying. This was not his first accident either. While
flying through the Snake river canyon south of *Jackson Wy he hit a
cable that crosses the river. A cable they use to measure the river
level. That said cable was 17.3 feet above the surface. The altitude
he was supposed to be at *in that area was around 4000 feet higher,
competent ?? *you better start smoking something better. The other CAP
pilot was supposably a CAP mountian fury course instructor who spun in
and took two other lives with him, and started a forest fire. That was
the only thing he did correctly though. They found the wreckage and
bodies by following the smoke. Competent ? highly improbable... I have
been flying almost 30 years, owned several planes and didn't join the
CAP for a free ride or to fly missions the next day. I have my own
plane and in fact my own airport, I don't need the CAP to leach off of
for my flying enjoyment, the vast majority of CAP members don't own an
aircraft. ! * If you are going to defend the CAP flight safety record
you better inform yourself in a timely matter before making statements
like "very experienced and competent".

Cheers and tailwinds.

I'm well aware of the details in both crashes. *You obviously didn't read
what I wrote very closely. *As I said, the people in question may have been
doing something stupid at the time, but guess what? *The vast majority of
accidents are caused by pilot error, and the vast majority of those are
caused by doing something stupid at the time. *However when you start
thinking you are more "competent" than they were and you would never do
something stupid yourself, is exactly the type of attitude that leads to a
lot of pilots' demise, and regardless of what you think, how many planes or
airports you have owned is irrelevant in that regard. *As far as CAP goes, I
find it quite amusing that you try to blame the accidents on CAP. *Had both
pilots been following CAP's rules, neither accident would have happened.
And as far as your short lived CAP tenure goes, I see a lot of your type
come and go. *For whatever reason, you have a different expectation of CAP
and when CAP doesn't bend to your expectation, you quit and act as if your
quitting is to the detriment of CAP. *I can assure you it isn't.-
- Show quoted text -

Let me set you straight.... First. Come on ol buddy, You are not
aware of the details of both crashes or as a intelligent human being
you would not have said those planes were flown by " experienced and
competent pilots.....I do blame the CAP for the crashes. If they had
their training and supervision in order the idiots who destroyed both
planes would have been grounded before they could waste taxpayers
dollars.

Second, I was told time and time again if you wreck a plane you pay
for the plane, this was straight from the wing commander. Guess
what. Mrs Anderson didn't repay the United States for her husbands
stupidy. The estate of the other bonehead didn't pay the United States
for his stupid act either.

Third and last, Your trying to belittle me is EXACLY why I and
thousands of other competent pilots left the CAP before one of your
type could kill us. There is a high probability you don't own a plane
of your own and fly the CAP plane at greatly reduced rate to enjoy
aviation. The rest of the taxpayers are funding your recreation...
This needs to STOP and I will keep expressing my opinion in the effort
of getting "COMPETENT AND EXPERIENCED" pilots in the CAP planes. .You
need to read this closely sport because those are your words,,,, not
mine. You keep driving at the point of my attitude will cause my
demise. You, my friend are not in touch with reality.

In closing I am not some keyboard pilot and I will identify myself...
I bet you don't have the balls to..


Ben Haas
Jackson Hole Wy
N801BH



Cheers............................................ ...