Gliderport Fined $9,000 over Use of 123.3Mhz

Here is the applicable FCC regulation governing ground stations for both
gliders and balloons:

http://law.justia.com/us/cfr/title47....1.1.2.11.html

There are two problems with this that need to be addressed:

1. It appears that each handheld radio must be covered by a license either
issued separately to each individual radio owner or possibly under an
umbrella license issued to an FBO, club or other organization like the SSA.
2. A license issued under 47 CFR Subpart K does not appear to authorize a
handheld ground user to communicate with the tow plane and/or glider using
the CATF frequency to support and coordinate flight operations. A retrieve
crew will presumably communicate on 123.3 as contemplated by this regulation
when on the road. However, without two radios, a glider operating in the
vicinity of an airfield will be exclusively monitoring the CATF frequency,
so the ground support crew needs to be able to communicate on that frequency
as well.

If you look at the FCC license database, it appears that there are a very
large number of licenses that were issued to FBOs, flying clubs, and
individual aircraft owners, which were not renewed after 1996, when the
requirement for FCC licenses for radios in aircraft was eliminated. I
suspect that most pilots are unaware that this change affected only radios
used within aircraft, and did not change the regulations for ground based
radios.

Mike Schumann


"Wayne Paul" wrote in message
...
Has anyone contacted a friend who is part of the "Balloon Community" to see
how they handle this situation? It seems that their need for a resolution
would be greater then ours. Maybe they have worked out something with the
FCC that we could emulate.


"Mike Schumann" wrote in message
...
Back in 1996, the FCC issued an NPRM to address the issue of licensing
handheld radios for ground personal to communicate with aircraft (see
http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Wireless/.../fcc96407.txt). The proposal
was
to permit an unlimited number of handhelds to be included in a single
license to minimize the administrative burden on the FCC and the public.

I don't know if this was adopted or not. If it was, it should be possible
for a club to get a single 10 year license for $115 (assuming the club is
a
non-profit), that would cover all of its members at that location. The
question then becomes, can this license cover radios being used on a
retrieve away from the airport? How about temporary remote operations at
another airport?

I suspect that 95% of soaring clubs, glider pilots and/or retrieve crews
that use handhelds on the ground are currently not licensed, and have no
idea that licensing is required. Given what happened to the TSA, this is
an
issue that can't be swept under the carpet.

I am willing to bet that the FCC would be very willing to come up with a
reasonable solution to handheld aviation radio licensing that would limit
operations to legitimate glider related uses, without subjecting the FCC
and
the glider community to the cost and administrative burden associated with
issuing a separate license to every single handheld radio.

Working out an arrangement between the FCC and the SSA to issue a single
license to the SSA for all SSA members would be a relatively simple and
straightforward way to solve this problem. Under the current fee schedule
this would cost the SSA $115 once every 10 years.

One way or the other, this issue needs to be addressed. Since this is
affects the entire glider community, the SSA should be involved in coming
up
with a solution, regardless of whether or not it becomes the holder of the
FCC license or comes up with some other solution.

Mike Schumann

"Darryl Ramm" wrote in message
...
On Jun 28, 5:30 pm, Jim Britton wrote:
At 16:47 28 June 2009, brianDG303 wrote:





OK, I gave it a try and here was my result. I registered, got my ID
number, and started to apply for a license. At step 3 you must select
the type (which doesn't match up with the list posted in the last
email) and there are three likely choices;

AA- Aviation Auxiliary
AC- Aircraft
AF- Aeronautical and Fixed

Selecting AC takes you down a path that quickly ends in License Not
Required.
AA and AF takes you to "connection failure- link is broken" and it is
Game Over.

There does not appear to be a way around the link I could find, so it
does not appear possible to obtain a license using the system set up
to issue licenses.

Brian

I did a bit better than you.
I eventually got AA to work.
Got through the first few pages.
But its seems that aliens cannot get licenses - so I gave up.

Darryl - have you actually tried this yourself - or do you not use a
handheld outside of an aircraft?

Jim

Hi Jim

I use ULS for my amateur radio license and a GMRS license (that has
currently lapsed and I don't use) I have no FCC aeronautical license -
as you say I don't have a need.

BTW you need an AF not AA subtype.

And to Answer John DerRosa's questions (again) yes you technically
need an "Aeronautical and Fixed" AF sub-type license for a handheld
(or any air band radio) if used outside of use in an aircraft. If I am
at the airport and transmitting a safety message etc. I'll be "N26DX
on the ground". The details of whether you need to be sitting in the
aircraft etc. I'll leave to you and the friendly FCC inspector. What
is clear but is if you have a mobile setup or handheld in a crew
vehicle or a base station at an FBO or club etc. you need a license
and I think that is entirely OK.

And Mike, no this is not somethign the SSA should pursue. I am sure
the FCC see the point as licensing and enforcing radio transmitters
and requiring a standard of behavior and a way to go after people that
transgress those rules and shut the down violators (by removing their
license and more if needed). With the FAA/FCC arrangement I believe
the FCC can go after your FAA licenses. With a ground crew and a radio
what do they do? Well they go after you first for not having an FCC
license. Do you want the SSA to charge every member $200 or so for a
ten year license and have to deal with FCC paperwork? The regulations
controlling this are laws, the FCC can't just give way licenses to
individuals though large organizations. And remember my warning
earlier about not stirring up things you do not know the outcome from.


Darryl

Mike Schumann wrote:


Working out an arrangement between the FCC and the SSA to issue a single
license to the SSA for all SSA members would be a relatively simple and
straightforward way to solve this problem. Under the current fee schedule
this would cost the SSA $115 once every 10 years.






What?! Have the FCC only issue one license and collect $115? They'd
fail without all that other income and would have to get a government
bailout. ;(

All,

I've successfully completed the license process. It was just about as
horrible as you might expect. The online form is like eight pages
(tabs) long -- I think it is the same one they use if you want to
start your own radio station. Here are some things you need to know,
which I found after lots of back and forth with the FCC:

1. The correct Radio and Service Code is indeed AF -- Aeronautucal
and fixed.
2. You must specify exactly one frequency, such as 123.3. Even
though 123.5 is also authorized for soaring communications, if you
want to transmit on it you will need a second license. Once license
will, however, cover a couple of handhelds.
3. When you specify the frequency, use the "lower" box, not the
"carrier" or any of the other entry fields.
4. The emission code is 6K00A3E. Really.
5. You have to specify the output power of your handheld. Mine is
5W.

Lynn Alley
"2KA"

In article 2KA writes:
All,

I've successfully completed the license process. It was just about as
horrible as you might expect. The online form is like eight pages
(tabs) long -- I think it is the same one they use if you want to
start your own radio station. Here are some things you need to know,
which I found after lots of back and forth with the FCC:

1. The correct Radio and Service Code is indeed AF -- Aeronautucal
and fixed.
2. You must specify exactly one frequency, such as 123.3. Even
though 123.5 is also authorized for soaring communications, if you
want to transmit on it you will need a second license. Once license
will, however, cover a couple of handhelds.

From the online code of federal regulations:

87.323 Frequencies.
(a) 121.500 MHz: Emergency and distress only.
(b) The frequencies 121.950, 123.300 and 123.500 MHz are available for
assignment to aviation support stations used for pilot training,
coordination of lighter-than-air aircraft operations, or coordination
of soaring or free ballooning activities. Applicants for 121.950 MHz
must coordinate their proposal with the appropriate FAA Regional
Spectrum Management Office. The application must specify the FAA
Region notified and the date notified. Applicants for aviation support
land stations may request frequency(ies) based upon their eligibility
although the Commission reserves the right to specify the frequency of
assignment. Aviation support mobile stations will be assigned 123.300
and 123.500 MHz. However, aviation support mobile stations must
operate only on a noninterference basis to communications between
aircraft and aviation support land stations.

Notice that it says "Aviation support mobile stations will be assigned 123.300
and 123.500 MHz."

That would lead one to believe that both frequencies will be assigned to a single
license.


However, this appears to be the wrong class of service if you wish to operate
on the local CTAF to annaounce things like runway crossings or staging to local
traffic (including the powr traffic).


Alan

I actually tried to apply for both frequencies on a single license.
The FCC informed me that the same station could potentially operate on
the two different frequencies, but that I would have to submit two
license fees and two applications. And you're right about the CTAF
thing. If you want to transmit on that as well using a mobile
station, you have to submit yet another application in a different
service class.

L.

Can someone tell me what public service is served by having the FCC
pursue such a stupid course of action? Why not recommend to our
congressmen that perhaps this part of the FCC should be be disbanded,
the regulation removed from the books, and that the money saved put
towards the deficit.

This bureaucracy is totally out of control.

2KA wrote:
I actually tried to apply for both frequencies on a single license.
The FCC informed me that the same station could potentially operate on
the two different frequencies, but that I would have to submit two
license fees and two applications. And you're right about the CTAF
thing. If you want to transmit on that as well using a mobile
station, you have to submit yet another application in a different
service class.

L.

Stumbled across this old thread from 2009...

Is the license discussed in this thread still required?

On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 at 4:00:39 PM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:
Stumbled across this old thread from 2009...

Is the license discussed in this thread still required?

http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/ind...craft_stations

I found this 2013 record of the $9000 forfeiture order against TSA

https://www.fcc.gov/document/texas-s...rfeiture-order

On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 at 4:17:52 PM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:
I found this 2013 record of the $9000 forfeiture order against TSA

https://www.fcc.gov/document/texas-s...rfeiture-order

Yes. IIRC it was appealed and no collection was ever made. However, every annual meeting or board election, checking the base station license expiry date should be an agenda item. It is at my club.