reverse the last thing you did.

I had an interesting talk in Narromine last week with a local
instructor about my LS6. I bought it because I thought it to have few
vices.

He knew one.One that almost killed him.

Coming back after a racing task he selected +10 flaps, plenty enough
to land with, especially when it's a bit windy.
On final he pulled full airbrakes after gong through some lift on
base. This causes the flaps to come along, out +10 towards Landing
flap. This happens automatically. It only doesn't lock automatically
in that case. When about 20 feet of the deck he put half his airbrakes
away for a smooth landing.

So far, that is what I do as well.

Now the problems started. While putting the airbrakes away the flaps
slipped to negative. Not very handy at 20 feet and relatively slow.
The glider promptly stalled.

He than did what he was thought by a test pilot." If everything goes
to ****, reverse the last thing you have done."

So contrary to what you would normally do when stalled, which is to
push the nose over , he pulled the brakes again, which in turn pulled
the flaps out again. He said that it saved his bacon. Took out the
undercarriage and hurt his back, but he walked away.

I've heard the Ventus 1 suffers from the same problem. Maybe some
other gliders as well. I thought I should share it with you just in
case.

cheers,

Mart

VH-NII

On Jan 26, 5:57*am, mart wrote:
I had an interesting talk in Narromine last week with a local
instructor about my LS6. I bought it because I thought it to have few
vices.

He knew one.One that almost killed him.

Coming back after a racing task he selected +10 flaps, plenty enough
to land with, especially when it's a bit windy.
On final he pulled full airbrakes after gong through some lift on
base. This causes the flaps to come along, out +10 towards Landing
flap. This happens automatically. It only doesn't lock automatically
in that case. When about 20 feet of the deck he put half his airbrakes
away for a smooth landing.

So far, that is what I do as well.

Now the problems started. While putting the airbrakes away the flaps
slipped to negative. *Not very handy at 20 feet and relatively slow.
The glider promptly stalled.


I do not believe this story.............
A glider that changes flaps settings back and forth by using spoilers?
I would suspect this a serious mechanical malfunction/problem
undetected during check up.
If this can happen I would not say it is a glider with a vice......
I would say it is A PIECE OF ****!

On Jan 26, 5:57*am, mart wrote:
I had an interesting talk in Narromine last week with a local
instructor about my LS6. I bought it because I thought it to have few
vices.

He knew one.One that almost killed him.

Coming back after a racing task he selected +10 flaps, plenty enough
to land with, especially when it's a bit windy.
On final he pulled full airbrakes after gong through some lift on
base. This causes the flaps to come along, out +10 towards Landing
flap. This happens automatically. It only doesn't lock automatically
in that case. When about 20 feet of the deck he put half his airbrakes
away for a smooth landing.

So far, that is what I do as well.

Now the problems started. While putting the airbrakes away the flaps
slipped to negative. *Not very handy at 20 feet and relatively slow.
The glider promptly stalled.

He than did what he was thought by a test pilot." If everything goes
to ****, reverse the last thing you have done."

So contrary to what you would normally do when stalled, which is to
push the nose over , he pulled the brakes again, which in turn pulled
the flaps out again. He said that it saved his bacon. Took out the
undercarriage and hurt his back, but he walked away.

I've heard the Ventus 1 suffers from the same problem. Maybe some
other gliders as well. *I thought I should share it with you just in
case.

cheers,

Mart

VH-NII

That's not supposed to happen in LS-6, as the flaps
are supposed to catch the detent. But it can happen.
There's some kind of spring that pulls the flap
handle towards the detent; sounds like that isn't
quite right in that particular glider. I owned a
couple of these gliders and always selected full
flap before using spoiler, which prevents this
possibility.

IIRC other gliders that retract flap with retracting
spoiler a
- early mosquito and mini-nimbus
- Calif A-21
Early Ventus does not have this problem IFF
proper flap detect is selected prior using
the spoilers.

Any others ?
Hope that helps someone out there,
Best Regards, Dave "YO electric"

On Jan 26, 4:55*am, silentpilot wrote:

I do not believe this story.............
A glider that changes flaps settings back and forth by using spoilers?

Yes, that's the way the LS6 works. The flap and airbrake handles are
intertwined such that application of airbrakes prevents the
simultaneous use of negative flaps. Under most circumstances it works
pretty well. In this instance it did not function as intended.

If this can happen I would not say it is a glider with a vice......
I would say it is A PIECE OF ****!

Wow, all-caps invective. How insightful.

Thanks, Bob K.

mart wrote:
Snip...

Now the problems started. While putting the airbrakes away the flaps
slipped to negative. Not very handy at 20 feet and relatively slow.
The glider promptly stalled.

You've probably already gleaned 'the obvious' lessons from this
incident, but - hoping to not be beating a dead horse for others who may
not yet have - here's my take. (A 'take' wholly ignorant of how the
LS-6's flap/airbrake system is *supposed* to work, incidentally...but a
take with 2k hours on 3-different flaps-only gliders, meaning each had
differing 'monkey motion' mechanical/hydraulic systems powering the
flaps, & only one ship of which had reflexing flaps...)

In a nutshell, never assume you know everything about how a system - any
system - is supposed to work without spending 'considerable time'
physically examining its realities. Of course, reading about it is good
too...but not wholly sufficient.

Never carry a package by the string...by which I'm suggesting all
mechanical locks should be viewed with a jaundiced eye, whether a gear
downlock, flap detent, or whatever. Locks wear. Some aren't even locks,
but rather 'suspenders' to another 'belt' somewhere. (My current ship's
'apparent' gear downlock falls into that category, according to the
designer.) Don't court failure...but be prepared for it. Use
'suspenders' where you can.
- - - -


He than did what he was thought by a test pilot." If everything goes
to ****, reverse the last thing you have done."

Excellent advice...if a person has the time/wits to apply it.
- - - -


So contrary to what you would normally do when stalled, which is to
push the nose over , he pulled the brakes again, which in turn pulled
the flaps out again. He said that it saved his bacon. Took out the
undercarriage and hurt his back, but he walked away.

Even in the absence of being able to deploy spoilers (and - he hoped -
flaps again prior to contacting the ground, i.e. your adviser), my
working conclusion is radically changing fuselage pitch angle (via
radical stick movements) near the ground is generally A Really Bad Thing
To Do. Even if a thoughtful person gets away with it without pranging
something, s/he'll come away with a deeper understanding of what happens
in the short term when one reduces wing angle of attack. Stated another
way, doing this near the ground is a 'good' way to learn that stick
*directly* controls angle of attack, and only indirectly, speed. Guess
which one changes first when you put stick forward close to the deck?

A stall at 20-feet agl is basically unrecoverable via stick input *only*
for the gliders we fly. The only salvation *might* be changing wing
angle of attack via camber change (if an option). In the absence of
complicating flaps, closing spoilers is advisable, too, natch.

Your adviser 'got away with' what would appear to be a rare-enough
situation, to be sure...

Had he not known of the 'reverse what you last did' advice, and instead
attempted to recover via forward stick, my money woulda been placed on
him whacking the ground at a steeper deck angle, harder.

And with the advantage of time and hindsight, had he simply pulled on
flaps (rather than hoping they came back with spoiler activation), it's
*possible* his arrival might have been less abrupt. As always, the devil
is in the details. Only thoughtfully checking your ship can allow you to
most sensibly decide for yourself which approach would have been 'ideal'
in your adviser's situation.
- - - -


I thought I should share it with you just in
case.

cheers,

Mart

VH-NII

Thanks for sharing!!!

Regards,
Bob W.

Bob,

In the spirit of getting to know how things work, could you please
elaborate on "Some aren't even locks, but rather 'suspenders' to
another 'belt' somewhere. (My current ship's 'apparent' gear downlock
falls into that category, according to the designer.)"

Thanks!

-John

On Jan 26, 12:29 pm, Bob Whelan wrote:
In a nutshell, never assume you know everything about how a system - any
system - is supposed to work without spending 'considerable time'
physically examining its realities. Of course, reading about it is good
too...but not wholly sufficient.

Never carry a package by the string...by which I'm suggesting all
mechanical locks should be viewed with a jaundiced eye, whether a gear
downlock, flap detent, or whatever. Locks wear. Some aren't even locks,
but rather 'suspenders' to another 'belt' somewhere. (My current ship's
'apparent' gear downlock falls into that category, according to the
designer.) Don't court failure...but be prepared for it. Use
'suspenders' where you can.

Mart et al:
Having probably 800 hours in LS-6, I never had the flaps jump toward
negative when they were positive.
This will however happen in a flapped Schempp glider if you have
allowed the flap selector track to wear and not replaced it. It does
not happen if the track is as new. This happened to me on short final
in a N3. Don't panic, fly the glider, everything is fine. Replace the
track.
The best possibility I can think of for the LS-6 is that something
(certainly not winter clothing at Narromine, this time of year) was
pushing outward on the flap handle to prevent it from latching into
the ratchet track. Did the pilot in the story keep a water bottle or
any other supplies on the left side of the cockpit? Was he overweight
or overdressed? If so, that is likely the "POS" that some would,
having no experience in LS flapped ships, blame the glider for.
The one place I found the airbrake/flap interconnect in LS- 6 (LS-3
works the same) to be a problem was in wave. You can not use much
airbrake to prevent yourself from climbing above 17,999' or you'll go
over flap operating speed in a hurry. It becomes a legal problem,
which is usually preferred to a mechanical problem.
Jim

On Jan 26, 11:25*am, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
On Jan 26, 4:55*am, silentpilot wrote:

If this can happen I would not say it is a glider with a vice......
I would say it is A PIECE OF ****!

Wow, all-caps invective. How insightful.

Thanks, Bob K.


all-caps invective......
YES AND NO!
Maybe to somebody that knows the modern funny song
PIECE OF **** CAR by Adam Sandler
this may only "sound" sarcastic.
I hope one day somebody will write/translate/copy a funny song
PIECE OF **** GLIDER.
I apologize to everybody else!
Happy Landings!

this may only "sound" sarcastic.
I hope one day somebody will write/translate/copy a funny song
PIECE OF **** GLIDER.
I apologize to everybody else!
Happy Landings!

piece of s**t glider, i got a piece of s**t glider
that f***ing pile of s**t, it never gets me very far
my gliders a piece of s**t cause the finish is f****ing shot
whenever i fly my glider, i have to swear a lot (its a piece of s**t)

i can't see through the canopy, cause my crew wiped with a dry rag
and the interior smells real bad cause the relief tube caught a snag
(its a piece of s**t)

its got no ILEC SN10, just a noncompensated vario
oh what i'd give for an ipaq, or at least maybe audio
and its got no f***ing airbrake, i'm always way out of control
every time i enter the patter i hear 'HEY, WATCH IT ***HOLE"

oh what the f*** did i do, what the f**** did i do, what the f*** did
i do, to get stuck with you
your wings are too short for FAI, the L/D is under 10, but im too
broke to buy anything new. oh f*** me!

im way too much drag on tow, the airplane always stalls
if i ever landed back at the airport the pilot would kick me in the
balls (ouch ouch ouch)
the canopy lock is busted, gotta use a f***ing coat hangar,
if a girl ever sees my glider theres no chance i'd ever bang her.


that pretty much cover it Paul??

I fly a LS-3A, and I noticed early on that you must have 20 degrees
flap to have full spoiler. I played with spoiler flap combination on
my first flight and noticed that it is possible to release the flaps
from the detent while deploying spoiler and go to negative flap by
accident. I usually just leave the flap in 20 degrees for landing.
It is possible to use less flap while landing, but you must make sure
to keep the spoiler handle as vertical as possible if you go to full
spoiler and then reduce the amount of spoiler. I use the back of my
hand to keep the flap in the notch I select. It is a weird system as
the spoiler driver slides inside the flap driver, so if you cannot
have any spoiler with full negative flap. Also, as you deploy the
spoiler the flap moves to the positive positions. I find 20 degree
flap is a lot of drag and you don't need a lot of spoiler. I've tried
landing with 10 degrees flap and it is possible to go to full spoiler
and back to 10 degree flap, but you must pay attention to the flap
handle position. Just leave it in 20 degrees for landing and come in
high.

Ed Gaddy