HS-117 successes?

Did the HS-117 ever have any accredited kills? I know it wasn't used
operationally, but after a number of test launches the Germans must've tried
it against a 'live' drone of some kind? I wonder how accurate a radio
controlled SAM could be if the operator is staring through a telescopic
sight at a target that's no more than a dot 20,000ft away in the clouds?

How effective do you think a fragmentation warhead on one of these would be
against a tightly-packed formation of B-17s? Pretty ghastly I'd imagine.

http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/dsh/...s/RM-Hs117.htm

Jim Doyle

I don't know about the effects of a frag warhead against a B-17, but I can say
for sure that command-guided SAMs are still in use even today. For example,
the SA-3 has a backup optical link to guide the missile to the target. The
gunner (what else do I call him?) keeps a telescope pointed at the target and
the correction signals are automatically transmitted to the missile. Maximum
range is claimed to be 20 km against bomber sized targets.

Vivek Thomas

"Vivtho87700" wrote in message
...
I don't know about the effects of a frag warhead against a B-17, but I can
say
for sure that command-guided SAMs are still in use even today. For
example,
the SA-3 has a backup optical link to guide the missile to the target.
The
gunner (what else do I call him?) keeps a telescope pointed at the target
and
the correction signals are automatically transmitted to the missile.
Maximum
range is claimed to be 20 km against bomber sized targets.

Vivek Thomas

I was just thinking since a formation of B-17s or B-24s would be very
tightly packed for mutual fighter protection, a formation would be very
susceptible to a shot-gun style frag warhead on such a missile.

If the HS-117 was deployed operationally to protect Germany from large scale
bombing raids, how'd you defend against such a missile with '45 technology?
I guess the allies - Americans on their day raids most likely - would've had
to revise their heavy bombing strategy quite seriously.

Interesting about the SA-3, how successful was this backup system?

Jim Doyle

"Jim Doyle" wrote in message ...
"Vivtho87700" wrote in message
...
I don't know about the effects of a frag warhead against a B-17, but I can
say
for sure that command-guided SAMs are still in use even today. For
example,
the SA-3 has a backup optical link to guide the missile to the target.
The
gunner (what else do I call him?) keeps a telescope pointed at the target
and
the correction signals are automatically transmitted to the missile.
Maximum
range is claimed to be 20 km against bomber sized targets.

Vivek Thomas

I was just thinking since a formation of B-17s or B-24s would be very
tightly packed for mutual fighter protection, a formation would be very
susceptible to a shot-gun style frag warhead on such a missile.

If the HS-117 was deployed operationally to protect Germany from large scale
bombing raids, how'd you defend against such a missile with '45 technology?
I guess the allies - Americans on their day raids most likely - would've had
to revise their heavy bombing strategy quite seriously.

Interesting about the SA-3, how successful was this backup system?

Jim Doyle

I suspect the lack of an efficient proximity fuse would likely have
been a serious limitation.

With the conventional fighter force of the Luftwaffe largely negated
by shortages of fuel and experienced pilots, to say nothing of the
overwhelming numerical superiority of the allied air forces, there was
relatively little real need to maintain tight formations, at least for
defence against fighter aircraft.

Robert Inkol

In article ,
(Vivtho87700) writes:
I don't know about the effects of a frag warhead against a B-17, but I can say
for sure that command-guided SAMs are still in use even today. For example,
the SA-3 has a backup optical link to guide the missile to the target. The
gunner (what else do I call him?) keeps a telescope pointed at the target and
the correction signals are automatically transmitted to the missile. Maximum
range is claimed to be 20 km against bomber sized targets.

Well, there's Command-Guided SAMs, and Command Guided SAMs. The
Wasserfall and Schmetterling were basically radio-controlled model
rockets (Well, big model rockets), with all tracking and guidance
taking place in the Missile Pilot's head, and with the Missile Pilot
steering the missile directly. The SA-3, and similar systems are
quite different. In those cases, the missile is guided by commands
sent by a computer fed by a tracking system. That tracking system may
be an autotracking radar, a manually tracked radar, or an
Electro-Optical system (TV camera, either normal, Low-Light, or IR).
The missile is tracked by a radar beacon in the missile itself, which
is usually powerful enough to burn through any jamming. The computer
takes the tracking info, compares the missile position to its intended
trajectory, and sends the necessary steering commands to the missile.
The only humans in the loop are those manning the tracking system.
Command systems, in general, can thus work on only Azimuth/Elevation
data for the target, rather than the ideal Azimuth/Elevation/Range
data. That is, as long as you have a reliable proximity fuze on your
missile. That's a lot harder than it looks. U.S. Nike Ajax and Nike
Hercules missiles, and the Soviet SA-2 (At least) and
Wasserfall/Schmetterling used a detonation signal from the ground to
trigger the warhead. (The Germans were never able to dope out a
workable proximity fuze. Acoustic? Don't make me laugh!). This is
pretty much workable with radar tracking in range, and a
fast-responding automatic system to send the warhead command
(Milliseconds are priceless) Human reaction times for manual
triggering are much, much too slow.

Sort of an Apples and Pomegranates comparison.
--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

(The Germans were never able to dope out a
workable proximity fuze. Acoustic? Don't make me laugh!).

The Germans had every type of proximity fuse under development at the
end of the war including: radio, EM, IR, electo-optical, and your
favorite- acoustic! Ever heard of Kranich? The X-4 aam used it:

http://www.luft46.com/missile/x-4.html

Rob

From: (robert arndt)
Date: 1/26/2004 1:23 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(The Germans were never able to dope out a
workable proximity fuze. Acoustic? Don't make me laugh!).

The Germans had every type of proximity fuse under development at the
end of the war including: radio, EM, IR, electo-optical, and your
favorite- acoustic! Ever heard of Kranich? The X-4 aam used it:

http://www.luft46.com/missile/x-4.html

Rob

So they had them "under development" and had more on the way. The U.S., U.K.
and the Soviets had all kinds of stuff "under development" at the end of the
war. Big deal. Your hero blew his brains out before anything came of these
developments.

The Third Reich was a failure in every sense of the word.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

(B2431) wrote in message ...
From: (robert arndt)
Date: 1/26/2004 1:23 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(The Germans were never able to dope out a
workable proximity fuze. Acoustic? Don't make me laugh!).

The Germans had every type of proximity fuse under development at the
end of the war including: radio, EM, IR, electo-optical, and your
favorite- acoustic! Ever heard of Kranich? The X-4 aam used it:

http://www.luft46.com/missile/x-4.html

Rob

So they had them "under development" and had more on the way. The U.S., U.K.
and the Soviets had all kinds of stuff "under development" at the end of the
war. Big deal. Your hero blew his brains out before anything came of these
developments.

The Third Reich was a failure in every sense of the word.

Except that it took 6 years to defeat them with a deluge of men &
material approaching 11-to-1 in 1945. Also, the war cost 60 million
lives, laid waste to most of Europe, cost Britain it's world power
status, Britain, France and Belgium their colonies, established the US
and USSR as superpowers, and furnished both with weapons that
radically changed the way we fought postwar... not to mention
advancing aviation greatly and starting a space race that produced
satellites and the eventual landing of a man on the moon.
Other than that, you're right Dan.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Rob

p.s. If the Germans didn't have any working proximity fuses then
please explain their technology transfer via U-boat to Japan in 1945.
Kranich worked and thats just one fuse. Do you want a partial listing
of the others?

Bad/Baz55A/Fuchs/Isegrimm/Kakadu/Kugelblitz/Kuhglocke/Lotte/Marabu/Marder/Meise/Paplitz/Pinscher/Pistole/Roulette/Stimmgabel/Trichter/Weisel/Zunder-19

There's 19 more for you, making 20 overall.

From: (robert arndt)


(B2431) wrote in message
...
From: (robert arndt)
Date: 1/26/2004 1:23 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

(The Germans were never able to dope out a
workable proximity fuze. Acoustic? Don't make me laugh!).

The Germans had every type of proximity fuse under development at the
end of the war including: radio, EM, IR, electo-optical, and your
favorite- acoustic! Ever heard of Kranich? The X-4 aam used it:

http://www.luft46.com/missile/x-4.html

Rob

So they had them "under development" and had more on the way. The U.S.,
U.K.
and the Soviets had all kinds of stuff "under development" at the end of
the
war. Big deal. Your hero blew his brains out before anything came of these
developments.

The Third Reich was a failure in every sense of the word.

Except that it took 6 years to defeat them with a deluge of men &
material approaching 11-to-1 in 1945. Also, the war cost 60 million
lives, laid waste to most of Europe, cost Britain it's world power
status, Britain, France and Belgium their colonies, established the US
and USSR as superpowers, and furnished both with weapons that
radically changed the way we fought postwar... not to mention
advancing aviation greatly and starting a space race that produced
satellites and the eventual landing of a man on the moon.
Other than that, you're right Dan.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Rob


I still can't understand why you adore the Nazi sewage that started that war.
Even if they hadn't started the war Nazi Germany would have been a major flop
in the long run.

On the anniversaty of Adolph "hey, look at all the fools who think I am Aryan"
Hitler's birthday do you stand out side like a good Nazi and yell "six million
more?" It would not surprise me in the least.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

"robert arndt" wrote in message
om...
(B2431) wrote in message
...


Except that it took 6 years to defeat them with a deluge of men &
material approaching 11-to-1 in 1945. Also, the war cost 60 million
lives, laid waste to most of Europe,

Most people consider mass murder a bad thing. Given that they had
essentially all the resources of western and central Europe at their
disposal in 1940/41 they mismanaged things horribly.

Only the Nazis could have so rapidly turned the Ukranians
and ByeloRussians who welcomed them as liberators in
1941 into the partisans who die rather than surrender.

Only the Nazis would pursue the development of a rocket
weapon that killed more of their own workers than the enemy
and cost more to develop and build than the value of
the damage caused when it landed.

We know that some 21,000 civilians died in London under the
V-2 attack but at least 30,000 workers at Dora and Peenemunde
died building the bloody things. Given that Germany was
critically short of manpower and materials this was mismanagement
of the worst kind.

Then again these are the same idiots who took 3 divisions
of half jewish Germans out of the front line in Russia
and sent them to concentration camps in late 1943
while the Russians wer elunching a major offensive.


cost Britain it's world power
status, Britain, France and Belgium their colonies, established the US
and USSR as superpowers, and furnished both with weapons that
radically changed the way we fought postwar... not to mention
advancing aviation greatly and starting a space race that produced
satellites and the eventual landing of a man on the moon.
Other than that, you're right Dan.


p.s. If the Germans didn't have any working proximity fuses then
please explain their technology transfer via U-boat to Japan in 1945.
Kranich worked and thats just one fuse. Do you want a partial listing
of the others?


Kranich was an accoustic system using doppler shift of the
sound of aircraft engines and its performance was
medicre at best. It was a poor substitute for the VT
fuze adopted by the western allies.

Keith