Airspeed of military planes

"Darrell" wrote in message
news:5vBQb.65145$XD5.52941@fed1read06...

If the "Dash One" manual for the military airplane specifies a speed
higher
than 250 below 10,000' it's OK to fly that fast. In the B-58 Hustler,
after
takeoff we came out of afterburners at 350 KIAS and climbed at 425 KIAS
until reaching Mach .90 for climb speed. That's why other aircraft try
to
stay clear of military climb corridors. We flew low level routes at 435
KIAS except for the high speed portion where we flew at 600 KIAS. (and
that's back in the 1960s)


I believe military climb corridors ceased being charted in the sixties as
well.

"BUFDRVR" wrote in message
...

Exactly. A BUFF at 488,000 pounds GW, below 250 KIAS would be a handful.


A waiver for safety serves no useful purpose.

"BUFDRVR" wrote...

I believe *all* Military training Routes (often seen abreviated as MTR) are
waived for operations exceeding 250 KIAS. In the BUFF we flew both IR and VR
routes at 360 KIAS (planned).

IIRC, there used to be "low speed" or "slow speed" MTRs as well; I don't know if
they still exist.

High-speed MTRs can have restrictions, but the ones I've seen are usually in the
450-480 KIAS range.

True. But normally 250 is adhered to for civilian types in the U.S. until
ATC is advised of the necessary speed and authorizes it. I currently teach
the MD-80 and on those that can go up to 159,500# for Take Off the minimum
maneuvering speed for a clean wing is 260 KIAS. We teach to set 250 in the
autothrottle window for takeoff. Bank angle 15 is also set for takeoff.
250 is OK with 15 degrees of bank. When ATC agrees to the higher speed (for
aircraft separation purposes), we set the higher speed and then increase
bank angle to 30 degrees. If an immediate turn is mandatory for safety we
can extend leading edge slats (which reduces maneuvering speed by about 40
knots) and go to 30 degrees of bank at 250.

B-58 Hustler History: http://members.cox.net/dschmidt1/
-

" Most waivers are for safety. Probably a B-52 with a good load needs
all the speed it can get on climbout.


But a waiver isn't needed for safety. The regulation permits an aircraft,
civil or military, to be operated at the minimum safe airspeed if the
minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the
maximum speed otherwise permitted.


§ 91.117 Aircraft speed.

(a) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, no person may
operate
an aircraft below 10,000 feet MSL at an indicated airspeed of more than
250
knots (288 m.p.h.).

(b) Unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC, no person may operate
an
aircraft at or below 2,500 feet above the surface within 4 nautical miles
of
the primary airport of a Class C or Class D airspace area at an indicated
airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph.). This paragraph (b) does not
apply to any operations within a Class B airspace area. Such operations
shall comply with paragraph (a) of this section.

(c) No person may operate an aircraft in the airspace underlying a Class B
airspace area designated for an airport or in a VFR corridor designated
through such a Class B airspace area, at an indicated airspeed of more
than
200 knots (230 mph).

(d) If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater
than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be
operated at that minimum speed.

"Ed Rasimus" wrote...

Things have undoubtedly changed since my last military flight, but the
applicable section of AFR 60-16 which was the governing regulation on
flight operations was that the max airspeed below 10,000 feet MSL was
250 KIAS unless the aircraft operating manual required higher. "We
don' need no steenkin' waivers."

The Navy version is OPNAVINST 3710.7. The latest version I have is .7S, dated
15 Nov 2001:

"1.2.3 Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR).

"Naval aircraft shall be operated in accordance with applicable provisions of
FAR, Part 91, except:

. . .

"b. Where exemptions or authorizations issued to the Department of the
Navy/Department of Defense permit deviation from FAR. Exemptions/authorizations
currently on file that allow deviation from FAR, Part 91.

"(1) Section 91.117 (Aircraft Speed). Operation of naval aircraft at speeds
in excess of limits imposed by section 91.117 shall be governed by paragraph
5.1.4 of this instruction."


The pertinent section of 5.1.4 is:

"5.1.4.2 Policy. In accordance with FAA authorization, flight operations below
10,000 feet MSL at an indicated airspeed in excess of 250 knots are authorized
under the following conditions:

"a. Within restricted areas.

"b. Within military operations areas.

"c. When operating on DOD/FAA mutually developed and published routes.

"d. When operating on DOD-developed and DOD-published VR routes. Such routes
shall be established for specific missions and used only by designated units
when the provisions of a through c above will not accommodate the required
national defense mission. Routes shall be developed and published in accordance
with DOD/FAA mutually developed criteria.

"e. When operating within large-scale exercises or on short-term special
missions approved by commanders listed in paragraph 5.1.4.3. Such exercises or
missions may be authorized provided that coordination is effected to ensure
awareness on the part of the nonparticipating flying public.

"f. If the airspeed required or recommended in the aircraft NATOPS manual to
maintain safe maneuverability is greater than the maximum speed described in
FAR, Part 91.117, the aircraft may be operated at that speed. Where the required
or recommended speed is given as a range, the lower part of the speed range
consistent with good operating practice should be used. The primary purpose of
this provision is to accommodate climbs, descents, and terminal area operations
and shall not be used to circumvent the provisions of sub-paragraphs above.
Under no circumstance will this safe maneuverability provision be construed as
authorization for individual pilots or mission commanders to conduct other
flights below 10,000 feet in excess of 250 knots."

On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 21:38:18 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:


I believe military climb corridors ceased being charted in the sixties as
well.

And, even then they were almost exclusively related to active air
defense scrambles. I entered military aviation in 1964 and operated
until 1987 and never, not even once flew a tactical jet in a "military
climb corridor."

We flew published departure routes, later we flew SIDs, we flew
published approaches, we operated in special use airspace including
restricted areas and MOAs, we operated along low level routes, etc.

We went fast a lot, too.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

"Darrell" wrote in message
news:qGBQb.65209$XD5.36267@fed1read06...

True. But normally 250 is adhered to for civilian types in the U.S. until
ATC is advised of the necessary speed and authorizes it. I currently teach
the MD-80 and on those that can go up to 159,500# for Take Off the minimum
maneuvering speed for a clean wing is 260 KIAS. We teach to set 250 in
the
autothrottle window for takeoff. Bank angle 15 is also set for takeoff.
250 is OK with 15 degrees of bank. When ATC agrees to the higher speed
(for
aircraft separation purposes), we set the higher speed and then increase
bank angle to 30 degrees. If an immediate turn is mandatory for safety we
can extend leading edge slats (which reduces maneuvering speed by about 40
knots) and go to 30 degrees of bank at 250.


ATC cannot authorize or require deviation from the 250 KIAS speed limitation
below 10,000 MSL, except within airspace delegated to Houston approach
control, and then only for departing aircraft.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote

I believe military climb corridors ceased being charted in the sixties as
well.

There was a climb corridor out of Mt. Home well into the 80's. Don't
know if it still exists. I seem to recall it being south-westerly, but the
eyesight is the first to go, and I can't remember what the second thing was...

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote
"BUFDRVR" wrote

Exactly. A BUFF at 488,000 pounds GW, below 250 KIAS would be a handful.

A waiver for safety serves no useful purpose.

So what's your point? That regulations should be written, and you should
follow them, even if it kills you, or makes the operation dangerous?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote
"BUFDRVR" wrote in message

I believe *all* Military training Routes (often seen abreviated as
MTR) are waived for operations exceeding 250 KIAS.


MTRs are established for the sole purpose of military training at airspeeds
greater than 250 KIAS.

They're also used for navigation training at airspeeds below 250 KIAS.