USMC declares AH-1Z Viper combat ready

On Oct 4, 10:49*am, Chris wrote:
On Oct 2, 2:21*am, Daryl Hunt wrote:

You would think that the Apache Long Bow could take on a Cobra
heads up. *While the Apache was progressing so was the Cobra.
And the Cobra is still more agile and nimble being much lighter.

I don't believe that chopper's air-to-air capability matters that
much. Before they could get into a merge they would have to survive
all of the fighters, air defense and golden BB's that are a much
bigger concern than another chopper's dogfighting ability. And for
that, the Cobra has a smaller profile so it should be less vulnerable
to BB's, but they are both equally vulnerable to fighters, MANPADs,
Shilkas, etc.

A2A performance provides a good overall picture of the airframe's
speed and agility, which definitely matters in overall operational
use. One other thing about Cobras...they are HARD to spot at range if
they're heading toward or away from you and from the side perspective
at a distance, they're very Hueyish. Apaches are overall easier to ID.

Typhoon502 wrote in news:66b90417-2935-4178-97a4-
:

On Oct 4, 10:49*am, Chris wrote:
On Oct 2, 2:21*am, Daryl Hunt wrote:

You would think that the Apache Long Bow could take on a Cobra
heads up. *While the Apache was progressing so was the Cobra.
And the Cobra is still more agile and nimble being much lighter.

I don't believe that chopper's air-to-air capability matters that
much. Before they could get into a merge they would have to survive
all of the fighters, air defense and golden BB's that are a much
bigger concern than another chopper's dogfighting ability. And for
that, the Cobra has a smaller profile so it should be less vulnerable
to BB's, but they are both equally vulnerable to fighters, MANPADs,
Shilkas, etc.

A2A performance provides a good overall picture of the airframe's
speed and agility, which definitely matters in overall operational
use. One other thing about Cobras...they are HARD to spot at range if
they're heading toward or away from you and from the side perspective
at a distance, they're very Hueyish. Apaches are overall easier to ID.

As a long time a/c recce wienie, I think there is very little difficulty
in identifying a Cobra side-on. As you say, it's a challenge from the
front--never worried about it from behind.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

Andrew Chaplin wrote:

As a long time a/c recce wienie, I think there is very little difficulty
in identifying a Cobra side-on. As you say, it's a challenge from the
front--never worried about it from behind.

Aren't you the clever one!
;-)

On Oct 4, 7:49*am, Chris wrote:
On Oct 2, 2:21*am, Daryl Hunt wrote:

You would think that the Apache Long Bow could take on a Cobra
heads up. *While the Apache was progressing so was the Cobra.
And the Cobra is still more agile and nimble being much lighter.

I don't believe that chopper's air-to-air capability matters that
much. Before they could get into a merge they would have to survive
all of the fighters, air defense and golden BB's that are a much
bigger concern than another chopper's dogfighting ability. And for
that, the Cobra has a smaller profile so it should be less vulnerable
to BB's, but they are both equally vulnerable to fighters, MANPADs,
Shilkas, etc.

Chris Manteuffel


I've heard of helos being shot down by jets, including the
accidental downing of Blackhawks by F-15's during
Operation Northern Watch, and the downing of an Iraqi
helo by a F-15E-delivered laser-guided bomb during
Operation Desert Storm.

But has there ever been a helo vs. helo battle?

I'm talking about real combat, not wargames/exercises.

In message
,
writes
But has there ever been a helo vs. helo battle?

There were encounters between Iraqi Mi-24s and Iranian Cobras during
their war, though I don't know the number or outcomes.

--
He thinks too much, such men are dangerous.

Paul J. Adam

On Oct 4, 9:44*pm, Andrew Chaplin
wrote:
Typhoon502 wrote in news:66b90417-2935-4178-97a4-

A2A performance provides a good overall picture of the airframe's
speed and agility, which definitely matters in overall operational
use. One other thing about Cobras...they are HARD to spot at range if
they're heading toward or away from you and from the side perspective
at a distance, they're very Hueyish. Apaches are overall easier to ID.

As a long time a/c recce wienie, I think there is very little difficulty
in identifying a Cobra side-on. As you say, it's a challenge from the
front--never worried about it from behind.

You might think not but try spotting one from a couple of miles
puttering along through the haze over Topsail Island near MCAS New
River after you've seen enough Hueys to bore you to tears. I'm a
spotter myself, but I just about squinted my eyes out trying to
resolve the shape. Finally had one overfly our position on the beach
on the next-to-last day there; I'd seen probably a few dozen CH-53s,
some Ospreys, and a scattering of Hueys, but that one Cobra made my
day.

On Oct 5, 2:10*pm, "Paul J. Adam"
wrote:
In message
,
writes

But has there ever been a helo vs. helo battle?

There were encounters between Iraqi Mi-24s and Iranian Cobras during
their war, though I don't know the number or outcomes.

--
He thinks too much, such men are dangerous.

Paul J. Adam

Ok, let's see. According to the list of Iraqi air-to-air victories
at:

http://s188567700.online.de/CMS/inde...37&Itemi d=47


12Jan81, An Iraqi Mi-25 used 12.7mm fire to down an Iranian AH-1J
16Jul82, An Iraqi Mi-25 intercepted An Iranian Bell 214C (no other
details available)
27Oct82, An Iraqi Mi-24 used an AT-6 missile to down an Iranian F-4E
14Sep83, An Iraqi Mi-25 downed an Iranian AH-1J (no other details
available)
5Feb84, 3 cases of Iraqi Mi-25's downing Iranian AH-1J's (no other
details available)
25Feb84, 3 cases of Iraqi Mi-25's downing Iranian AH-1J's (no other
details available)
16Feb86, An Iraqi Mi-25 downed an Iranian AH-1J (no other details
available)
22May86, An Iraqi Mi-25 downed an Iranian AH-1J (no other details
available)
22May88, an Iraqi SA.342L used 20mm fire to down an Iranian AH-1J
23May88, an Iraqi SA.342L used 20mm fire to down an Iranian AB.214C
25May88, 2 cases of Iraqi Mi-25's using 20mm (23mm?) fire to down
Iranian AB.214C's
30May88, An Iraqi Mi-25 used 20mm (23mm?) fire to down an Iranian AB.
214C
3Jun88, An Iraqi Mi-25 used 20mm (23mm?) fire to down an Iranian AB.
214C
4Jun88, An Iraqi Mi-25 used 20mm (23mm?) fire to down an Iranian AB.
214C
9Jun88, An Iraqi Mi-25 used 20mm (23mm?) fire to down an Iranian AB.
214C


And from the lists of Iranian air-to-air victories at:

http://s188567700.online.de/CMS/inde...35&Itemi d=47

and

http://s188567700.online.de/CMS/inde...36&Itemi d=47


14Nov80, An Iranian AH-1J used a TOW to down an Iraqi SA.342
14Nov80, An Iranian AH-1J used 20mm fire to down an Iraqi Mi-25
24Feb81, 2 cases of Iranian AH-1J's using TOW's to down Iraqi SA.342's
??Mar82, An Iranian AH-1J used a TOW to down an Iraqi SA.342
2Nov82, 2 cases of Iranian AH-1J's using 20mm fire to down Iraqi SA.
342M's
3Nov82, An Iranian AH-1J used 20mm fire to down an Iraqi SA.316B
21Nov82, An Iranian AH-1J used 20mm fire to down an Iraqi Mi-25
??Jul83, An Iranian AH-1J used 20mm+68mm (70mm?) rockets to down an
Iraqi MiG-21MF
27Feb84, An Iranian AH-1J used 20mm fire to down an Iraqi Su-20
??Feb84, An Iranian AH-1J used a TOW to down an Iraqi Mi-25
3Mar84, An Iranian AH-1J+RH-53 used 20mm+12.7mm fire to down an Iraqi
MiG-23MF
10Feb86, An Iranain AH-1J used a BGM-71 TOW to down an Iraqi SA.342
13Feb86, An Iranian AH-1J used a BGM-71 TOW to down an Iraqi Mi-25
14Feb86, An Iranian AH-1J used 20mm fire to down an Iraqi MiG-21
18Feb86, an Iranian AH-1J used a BGM-71 TOW to down an Iraqi Mi-25
19Jul88, An Iranian AH-1J used 20mm fire to down an Iraqi SA.342L


Note: the Mi-25 is a version of the "Hind" that was used by the
Iraqi's at the time.

Question: Are the air-to-air kill tables linked above accurate?

If so, the Iran/Iraq war featured more helo vs. helo combat than any
other
conflict so far.

On 10/9/2010 6:57 PM, wrote:
On Oct 5, 2:10 pm, "Paul J. Adam"
wrote:
In message
,
writes

But has there ever been a helo vs. helo battle?

There were encounters between Iraqi Mi-24s and Iranian Cobras during
their war, though I don't know the number or outcomes.

--
He thinks too much, such men are dangerous.

Paul J. Adam

Ok, let's see. According to the list of Iraqi air-to-air victories
at:


Note: the Mi-25 is a version of the "Hind" that was used by the
Iraqi's at the time.

One of the Fake Special Forces claimed that he downed a Hind-D
with a 7.65 rifle in Afganstan. He wouldn't go into how he did
it. I mentioned that the Hind had one weak point. The Oil
Cooling Radiator. He jumped on that and said that is what he
hit. RED FLAG!!! Even if you did hit it, it had about 45
minutes of flight left before the gearbox would freeze up.

I stated there is no way he could have done it because he was
still here. You shoot at the Hind-D and it kills you. Nothing
short of a 20mm or larger can do anything other than **** it off.
Just as well be poking a hornets nest.

U.S. Marines Eye AH-1Z Full-Rate Production:

"With a successful operational evaluation in hand, the
U.S. Marine Corps is planning to request approval for
full-rate production of the new AH-1Z attack helicopter
after a years-long shortfall.

The Defense Acquisition Board is set to review the
program in early November, says Col. Harry Hewson,
who manages the Huey and Cobra upgrade programs
for the Naval Air Systems Command."

See:

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...hannel=defense