FES selflaunch

Originally Posted by bildan

On Feb 27, 7:13*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:


Because its not a ASEL aircraft. What do you would think would happen
if you set loose a typical power pilot in a self launch motorglider?

What would happen if you set him loose in a sea plane, a twin or a
jet? It's at least arguable the skill gap between single engine land
and any of those is comparable to that between a pure glider and a
self-launcher yet they each require a specific rating.

Some motorgliders easily approach the complexity and work load of
flying a light twin.

I think Walt has a good question.

Bill Daniels

I think my point was missed. I am not opposed to the glider pilot having an engine, I was curious as to how one got around the ASEL situation. In my mind if you put an engine on and glider it becomes an ASEL. Take the pure motor glider with an engine hanging on the nose. Could an ASEL pilot check out in one and fly it legally? Perhaps a light sport pilot could do the same? Sure these things are gonna float like no conventional ASEL would but I'm just asking a question. I need to check the regs on this for myself when I get the chance but I realize this forum contains a plethora of information.

I have a commercial rating for both airplanes and gliders so I think I see both sides of the equation. In my mind, the glider pilot's skill is greater than an equivalent time ASEL type. I learned things I never knew and developed greater skills in flying than I had when I transitioned from power to gliders., But when an ASEL type want to fly a multi, he is required to get a multi engine rating and it appears on his license. Same with seaplane and other different types of ratings. I believe the endorsement is all that is required of a glider pilot for a motor glider, am I right?

For the record I have seen a high time, highly experienced power and glider pilot make a major blunder with his motor out. Scared the crappola out of me and I was standing on the ground at the time. The bottom line is that proper training and check outs are everything.

Walt

Walt

It does not become an ASEL, its type certified (or experimental) as a
glider. Now it might be possible if somebody really wanted to have
some touring motorglider certified under either - and some may well
have been.

Asking for them to be ASEL would be the *last* think I would want, but
I am concerned that the self launch endorsement training can be
problematic - its possible for somebody to sign a pilot off but as
Bill says some of these are complex and things like system
understanding, pre-flight/simple maintenance and emergency procedures
need to be really gone through well. And all this vary widely between
types--especially between a typical retracting mast and touring style
motorglider. And chance to practice emergency procedures in a complex
single seater without the instructor being there is reduced, but this
at least better get talked about, and the instructor better make sure
you know where to put your fingers when things go pear shaped.

I've met motorglider owners who seem oblivious to about simple stuff
like the proper oil to use, how the lubrication system and different
alarms on the engines work -- scary stuff. Did they ever read the
pilot or maintenance manual?

I used to have a power license, I did my formal self launch sign off
in a Grob 109, not at all relevant to the ASH-26E that I fly, but both
the (very experienced) instructor and I knew that and he pushed me on
a nasty windy day. In reality it was really a ASEL taildragger sign
off, but we talked though some of the nasty stuff with retracting mast
motorgliders. Then through the ASH-26E owners community I ended up
sitting down with a current very experienced owner and did an informal
ground school then talked things over with an instructor/examiner who
signed me off in the ASH-26E. I felt like I had pretty good training,
but YMMV.

There are some good instructors out here who can teach this stuff, but
there are just not many of them, and not many two seat motorgliders.

Darryl

On Feb 28, 7:53*am, Walt Connelly Walt.Connelly.
wrote:
bildan;763822 Wrote:



On Feb 27, 7:13*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
-

Because its not a ASEL aircraft. What do you would think would happen
if you set loose a typical power pilot in a self launch motorglider?-

What would happen if you set him loose in a sea plane, a twin or a
jet? *It's at least arguable the skill gap between single engine land
and any of those is comparable to that between a pure glider and a
self-launcher yet they each require a specific rating.

Some motorgliders easily approach the complexity and work load of
flying a light twin.

I think Walt has a good question.

Bill Daniels

I think my point was missed. *I am not opposed to the glider pilot
having an engine, I was curious as to how one got around the ASEL
situation. *In my mind if you put an engine on and glider it becomes an
ASEL. * Take the pure motor glider with an engine hanging on the nose.
Could an ASEL pilot check out in one and fly it legally? *Perhaps a
light sport pilot could do the same? *Sure these things are gonna float
like no conventional ASEL would but I'm just asking a question. I need
to check the regs on this for myself when I get the chance but I realize
this forum contains a plethora of information.

I have a commercial rating for both airplanes and gliders so I think I
see both sides of the equation. *In my mind, the glider pilot's skill is
greater than an equivalent time ASEL type. *I learned things I never
knew and developed greater skills in flying than I had when I
transitioned from power to gliders., *But when an ASEL type want to fly
a multi, he is required to get a multi engine rating and it appears on
his license. *Same with seaplane and other different types of ratings.
I believe the endorsement is all that is required of a glider pilot for
a motor glider, am I right?

For the record I have seen a high time, highly experienced power and
glider pilot make a major blunder with his motor out. *Scared the
crappola out of me and I was standing on the ground at the time. *The
bottom line is that proper training and check outs are everything.

Walt

--
Walt Connelly

My $ .02

What makes an aircraft a motor glider is the "span loading", which
determines, more than a power source, the flight characteristics of an
aircraft.

Mike

On Feb 28, 1:18*pm, mike wrote:
On Feb 28, 7:53*am, Walt Connelly Walt.Connelly.



wrote:
bildan;763822 Wrote:

On Feb 27, 7:13*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
-

Because its not a ASEL aircraft. What do you would think would happen
if you set loose a typical power pilot in a self launch motorglider?-

What would happen if you set him loose in a sea plane, a twin or a
jet? *It's at least arguable the skill gap between single engine land
and any of those is comparable to that between a pure glider and a
self-launcher yet they each require a specific rating.

Some motorgliders easily approach the complexity and work load of
flying a light twin.

I think Walt has a good question.

Bill Daniels

I think my point was missed. *I am not opposed to the glider pilot
having an engine, I was curious as to how one got around the ASEL
situation. *In my mind if you put an engine on and glider it becomes an
ASEL. * Take the pure motor glider with an engine hanging on the nose..
Could an ASEL pilot check out in one and fly it legally? *Perhaps a
light sport pilot could do the same? *Sure these things are gonna float
like no conventional ASEL would but I'm just asking a question. I need
to check the regs on this for myself when I get the chance but I realize
this forum contains a plethora of information.

I have a commercial rating for both airplanes and gliders so I think I
see both sides of the equation. *In my mind, the glider pilot's skill is
greater than an equivalent time ASEL type. *I learned things I never
knew and developed greater skills in flying than I had when I
transitioned from power to gliders., *But when an ASEL type want to fly
a multi, he is required to get a multi engine rating and it appears on
his license. *Same with seaplane and other different types of ratings..
I believe the endorsement is all that is required of a glider pilot for
a motor glider, am I right?

For the record I have seen a high time, highly experienced power and
glider pilot make a major blunder with his motor out. *Scared the
crappola out of me and I was standing on the ground at the time. *The
bottom line is that proper training and check outs are everything.

Walt

--
Walt Connelly

My $ .02

What makes an aircraft a motor glider is the "span loading", which
determines, more than a power source, the flight characteristics of an
aircraft.

Mike

The FAA certified Spaceship One as a glider. Presumably this is
because it didn't have an engine and they didn't know how to certify
an aircraft with a rocket motor.

I'm not sure that it would meet your "span loading" criterion!

Mike

On Feb 27, 5:15*pm, key wrote:
Very interesting! *What are your plans for developing self-launch
electric sailplanes?

Key Dismukes

THIS WAS THE FIRST FLIGHT OF A FRONT ELECTRIC SELF LAUNCH IN THE
WORLD !!!

development is over.........
tests are in progress.........
success is coming because of:

ease of use
foolproof controls and operations
no maintenance

similar to the 20 years old carat but electric and prop folds back

ecologic.............

While I am fascinated by the self launcher, the sustainer and the like,
I have long been curious as to why a glider with a motor doesn't require
an "airplane, single engine, land" license to fly. *Just curious. *

Walt

because some bureaucrat decided it is a glider.........
and you can only fly it with a glider licence.
bureaucracy will never keep up with progress.

but in some country a touring motor glider is considered an ultralight
about as an "airplane, single engine, land"

On Feb 28, 1:35*pm, Mike the Strike wrote:
On Feb 28, 1:18*pm, mike wrote:



On Feb 28, 7:53*am, Walt Connelly Walt.Connelly.

wrote:
bildan;763822 Wrote:

On Feb 27, 7:13*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
-

Because its not a ASEL aircraft. What do you would think would happen
if you set loose a typical power pilot in a self launch motorglider?-

What would happen if you set him loose in a sea plane, a twin or a
jet? *It's at least arguable the skill gap between single engine land
and any of those is comparable to that between a pure glider and a
self-launcher yet they each require a specific rating.

Some motorgliders easily approach the complexity and work load of
flying a light twin.

I think Walt has a good question.

Bill Daniels

I think my point was missed. *I am not opposed to the glider pilot
having an engine, I was curious as to how one got around the ASEL
situation. *In my mind if you put an engine on and glider it becomes an
ASEL. * Take the pure motor glider with an engine hanging on the nose.
Could an ASEL pilot check out in one and fly it legally? *Perhaps a
light sport pilot could do the same? *Sure these things are gonna float
like no conventional ASEL would but I'm just asking a question. I need
to check the regs on this for myself when I get the chance but I realize
this forum contains a plethora of information.

I have a commercial rating for both airplanes and gliders so I think I
see both sides of the equation. *In my mind, the glider pilot's skill is
greater than an equivalent time ASEL type. *I learned things I never
knew and developed greater skills in flying than I had when I
transitioned from power to gliders., *But when an ASEL type want to fly
a multi, he is required to get a multi engine rating and it appears on
his license. *Same with seaplane and other different types of ratings.
I believe the endorsement is all that is required of a glider pilot for
a motor glider, am I right?

For the record I have seen a high time, highly experienced power and
glider pilot make a major blunder with his motor out. *Scared the
crappola out of me and I was standing on the ground at the time. *The
bottom line is that proper training and check outs are everything.

Walt

--
Walt Connelly

My $ .02

What makes an aircraft a motor glider is the "span loading", which
determines, more than a power source, the flight characteristics of an
aircraft.

Mike

The FAA certified Spaceship One as a glider. * Presumably this is
because it didn't have an engine and they didn't know how to certify
an aircraft with a rocket motor.

I'm not sure that it would meet your "span loading" criterion!

Mike

It is not "MY" criterion! The FAA made it "THEIR" criterion.

Mike

On Feb 28, 4:53*pm, Walt Connelly Walt.Connelly.
wrote:
bildan;763822 Wrote:



On Feb 27, 7:13*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
-

Because its not a ASEL aircraft. What do you would think would happen
if you set loose a typical power pilot in a self launch motorglider?-

What would happen if you set him loose in a sea plane, a twin or a
jet? *It's at least arguable the skill gap between single engine land
and any of those is comparable to that between a pure glider and a
self-launcher yet they each require a specific rating.

Some motorgliders easily approach the complexity and work load of
flying a light twin.

I think Walt has a good question.

Bill Daniels

I think my point was missed. *I am not opposed to the glider pilot
having an engine, I was curious as to how one got around the ASEL
situation. *In my mind if you put an engine on and glider it becomes an
ASEL. * Take the pure motor glider with an engine hanging on the nose.
Could an ASEL pilot check out in one and fly it legally? *Perhaps a
light sport pilot could do the same? *Sure these things are gonna float
like no conventional ASEL would but I'm just asking a question. I need
to check the regs on this for myself when I get the chance but I realize
this forum contains a plethora of information.

I have a commercial rating for both airplanes and gliders so I think I
see both sides of the equation. *In my mind, the glider pilot's skill is
greater than an equivalent time ASEL type. *I learned things I never
knew and developed greater skills in flying than I had when I
transitioned from power to gliders., *But when an ASEL type want to fly
a multi, he is required to get a multi engine rating and it appears on
his license. *Same with seaplane and other different types of ratings.
I believe the endorsement is all that is required of a glider pilot for
a motor glider, am I right?

For the record I have seen a high time, highly experienced power and
glider pilot make a major blunder with his motor out. *Scared the
crappola out of me and I was standing on the ground at the time. *The
bottom line is that proper training and check outs are everything.

Walt

--
Walt Connelly

Both types of pilots are highly skilled and well trained for their
particular machines. It just is that sticking an engine into a modern
sailplane makes it as much of an ASEL as turning of the engine on a
152 makes it a soaring machine.

The Cessna will glide, but in a very different manner from a glider.
Conversely, an SLMG with its long wings, slippery surface and
specialized engine designed exclusively for full power operation and a
very narrow flight envelope (the one I fly will go from stall to stall
+12 knots before it overrevs) is far from the typical ASEL experience.

On 2/28/2011 2:19 AM, Chris Nicholas wrote:
I recently asked (on a mainly GA Power pilots’) forum what extra
hazards a glider pilot might need to think about, when acquiring a
self-sustaining glider. (I am getting a FES, but not the self-launch
variety.)

Many of the responses related to internal combustion engines, rather
than electric. For what it is worth, this was my question and my first
thought, followed by is the list I got from various people, edited to
avoid duplications;

I address some of the problems in my "A Guide to Self-launching
Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" (tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz); however, because
it's a sustainer with simple "retraction" and electric, you avoid
many/most of the problems.

Read my Guide, then after a season with the FES, let me know what
_should_ have been in the Guide to prepare you for your glider.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

Eric, thanks. Looks very comprehensive. I will read it over time,
and get back to you if I have anything to add.

Regards - Chris.