The F-102 Delta Dagger (Was GWB as a Nat'l Guard Fighter Pilot threads.)

"Tex Houston" wrote in message
...

"David Hartung" wrote in message
...

"Mark T. Evert" wrote in message
...

The Texas Guard transitioned to the F101 Voodoo which they flew till
the
early 80's when they moved to the F4 and now they fly F16's

Somewhere around 1979-1980, we at Luke, were training the Texas ANG to
fly
F4Cs.

Wednesday evening I'm having dinner in a resturant part of which is a
former
Texas Air National Guard (K)C-97.

Now that sounds cool.

Peter Stickney wrote:

In article ,
Cub Driver writes:

Question on the F-102:

When the pilot went to fire missiles, he presumably had to open the
missile-bay doors.

Could this be done at supersonic speeds, or what speed did he have to
slow to?

According to my copy of the F-102A Dash One, there are no limits on
opening the bay doors that don't apply to the rest of teh airplane.

Dan, I've got an electronic Copy of the F-102S Standard Aircraft
Characteristics Chart. Would that be useful to you?
Among other things, it includes graphical representations of the
flight enveloped adn stuff like speed/range tradeoffs.

Hey Pete, can I get in on that too? I can add it to my stash of navy SACs.

Guy (just lose the "junk" in my address)

"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message ...
"Michael P. Reed" wrote in message
om...

The Falcon did go through upgrades throughout its career. The final ones
in
service (AIM-4F/G limited to use on the F-106) were undoubtedly better
and
more capable than the early sixties variants, with greater range, larger
warheads, and better maneuverability than the original AIM-4A and later
AIM-4D.

This is a bit wrong.

And then you go on to acknowledge that the Falcon did indeed go through a
development program that left the later variants decidedly more capable than
the first version...? Note I said "the final ones in service", not the
"final version fielded".

Er, ok, I missed the "later" prior to "AIM-4D," but IIRC the AIM-4D
was the most maneuverable of the lot and it had the same seeker as the
G. The "Super Falcon" Fs and Gs did have a somewhat bigger warhead
though.

--
Regards,

Michael P. Reed

"Michael P. Reed" wrote:

"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message ...
"Michael P. Reed" wrote in message
om...

The Falcon did go through upgrades throughout its career. The final ones
in
service (AIM-4F/G limited to use on the F-106) were undoubtedly better
and
more capable than the early sixties variants, with greater range, larger
warheads, and better maneuverability than the original AIM-4A and later
AIM-4D.

This is a bit wrong.

And then you go on to acknowledge that the Falcon did indeed go through a
development program that left the later variants decidedly more capable than
the first version...? Note I said "the final ones in service", not the
"final version fielded".

Er, ok, I missed the "later" prior to "AIM-4D," but IIRC the AIM-4D
was the most maneuverable of the lot and it had the same seeker as the
G. The "Super Falcon" Fs and Gs did have a somewhat bigger warhead
though.

The AIM-4D was a joke; even the test equipment displayed
a huge question mark in green lights - on the rare occasion
when the system worked properly. (Seriously; it did!)

Urban Fredriksson
Also, it's not hard to find photos of Finnish Drakens from
the 90's with RB 27s (so I think the real RB 27 retirement
date is 2000).

Indeed. The pics below are dated the 10th of June 2000.

http://mikkila.wabbits.org/show.php?...air%2Faircraft
http://mikkila.wabbits.org/show.php?...air%2Faircraft
http://mikkila.wabbits.org/show.php?...air%2Faircraft
http://mikkila.wabbits.org/show.php?...air%2Faircraft

"David E. Powell" wrote in message ws.com...
OK. I have seen the debate over GWB as an F-102 pilot, so I was wondering
about a couple of things.

First, was the F-102 taken out of service in the early 1970s? I have to ask
because as a kid I remember the Guard around here flying F-106s up to around
1990 or 1991 or so, and they were closely related to the F-102. Though I
recall them being (much) faster. Mach 1.8 vs. Mach 2.32 IIRC.

Second, if GWB was trained on the F-102, and had asked about other planes,
would he have been assigned to the -106 or was Texas going to a different
fighter? The program wher Guard piolts were flying in Vietnam was mentioned,
and the USAF turning him down because the USAF was phasing out the -102. I
guess the time needed to retrain the guy on another type would have
prohibited him making the cutoff date? Makes sense, though, and the USAF
forces in the area could have been phasing out the -102 (which was more
suited as a bomber interceptor for CONUS defense than dogfighting) earlier
than counterparts in the US or Europe.

Third. did the F-102 have a gun or just internal missiles in a weapon bay?
The F-106, as I recall, carried Falcon missiles (Or GENIEs*) and later had a
20mm Vulcan cannon installed as well.

Fourth, the F-102 and F-106 just look cool. Had to say that. Good designs,
and you can see the evolution in fuselage flow in the later design. (Though
the previous one had those cool mini-cones at the tail.)


DEP

*There was a massive "Was GENIE a rocket or a missile" debate on another
group, which I won't get into here. I think the verdict was a rocket, which
it was, guided missile or not.

I have a question: what was/is the policy on use of ANG airplanes? I
have seen several bios that stated George Bush used an F-102 to fly to
Florida for a plant business he was involved in. I presume he did the
usual flight plan and landed at a military installation. What would
be the policy, local or ANG, to a Guard pilot using one of the unit's
planes for something not demonstrably Guard duty? And does/did it
happen as a regular thing?

Pilots did (and still do) fly cross-country sorties/missions. Usually on
the weekend. Typically the crews are asked to 'put on' a certain number of
hours/sorties prior to returning to home base. Benefits unit in that they
get the additional flying time for their crews but the maintenance folks
don't have to support the sorties (usually transient maintenance at enroute
and final destination handle the chores of refueling, paperwork, etc)

What the pilots/crews did at the 'end of the day' was pretty much up to
them.... Take in the local sights, visit relatives/friends assuming they
lived nearby, or take care of personal 'chores'. Guard typically had more
flexibility than active duty wrt how long aircraft were out and where they
were allowed to go.... Sounds like this MAY be the case here...

Mark



I have a question: what was/is the policy on use of ANG airplanes? I
have seen several bios that stated George Bush used an F-102 to fly to
Florida for a plant business he was involved in. I presume he did the
usual flight plan and landed at a military installation. What would
be the policy, local or ANG, to a Guard pilot using one of the unit's
planes for something not demonstrably Guard duty? And does/did it
happen as a regular thing?

In article ,
(Jack Linthicum) writes:
"David E. Powell" wrote in message ws.com...
OK. I have seen the debate over GWB as an F-102 pilot, so I was wondering
about a couple of things.

First, was the F-102 taken out of service in the early 1970s? I have to ask
because as a kid I remember the Guard around here flying F-106s up to around
1990 or 1991 or so, and they were closely related to the F-102. Though I
recall them being (much) faster. Mach 1.8 vs. Mach 2.32 IIRC.

Second, if GWB was trained on the F-102, and had asked about other planes,
would he have been assigned to the -106 or was Texas going to a different
fighter? The program wher Guard piolts were flying in Vietnam was mentioned,
and the USAF turning him down because the USAF was phasing out the -102. I
guess the time needed to retrain the guy on another type would have
prohibited him making the cutoff date? Makes sense, though, and the USAF
forces in the area could have been phasing out the -102 (which was more
suited as a bomber interceptor for CONUS defense than dogfighting) earlier
than counterparts in the US or Europe.

Third. did the F-102 have a gun or just internal missiles in a weapon bay?
The F-106, as I recall, carried Falcon missiles (Or GENIEs*) and later had a
20mm Vulcan cannon installed as well.

Fourth, the F-102 and F-106 just look cool. Had to say that. Good designs,
and you can see the evolution in fuselage flow in the later design. (Though
the previous one had those cool mini-cones at the tail.)


DEP

*There was a massive "Was GENIE a rocket or a missile" debate on another
group, which I won't get into here. I think the verdict was a rocket, which
it was, guided missile or not.

I have a question: what was/is the policy on use of ANG airplanes? I
have seen several bios that stated George Bush used an F-102 to fly to
Florida for a plant business he was involved in. I presume he did the
usual flight plan and landed at a military installation. What would
be the policy, local or ANG, to a Guard pilot using one of the unit's
planes for something not demonstrably Guard duty? And does/did it
happen as a regular thing?

Proficientcy flying. Cross-country stuff, that sort fo thing.
Killing two birds with one stone, basically. It's not a matter of
just walking out to the Flight Line as borrowing an aircraft - you
have to have a good, officially sanctioned reason. (Counts as
training/drill points, too).

It's not unheard of - Jack Conroy, the guy who developed and built the
Boeing 377 "Pregnant Guppy" outsize freighter conversions, and a bunch
of other projects as well, used to commute to work in a California Air
Guard F-86.
For that matter, I once had a meeting in Portland, ME, with a fellow
from Bango who'd used his "Company Car" to get to the meeting - An ANG
F-101B.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

Dweezil Dwarftosser wrote in message ...

The AIM-4D was a joke; even the test equipment displayed
a huge question mark in green lights - on the rare occasion
when the system worked properly. (Seriously; it did!)

Ah, but we were discussing the issue of relativity. How was it as
compared to the G?

--
Regards,

Michael P. Reed

"Jack Linthicum" wrote in message
om...
"David E. Powell" wrote in message
ws.com...
OK. I have seen the debate over GWB as an F-102 pilot, so I was
wondering
about a couple of things.

First, was the F-102 taken out of service in the early 1970s? I have to
ask
because as a kid I remember the Guard around here flying F-106s up to
around
1990 or 1991 or so, and they were closely related to the F-102. Though I
recall them being (much) faster. Mach 1.8 vs. Mach 2.32 IIRC.

Second, if GWB was trained on the F-102, and had asked about other
planes,
would he have been assigned to the -106 or was Texas going to a
different
fighter? The program wher Guard piolts were flying in Vietnam was
mentioned,
and the USAF turning him down because the USAF was phasing out the -102.
I
guess the time needed to retrain the guy on another type would have
prohibited him making the cutoff date? Makes sense, though, and the USAF
forces in the area could have been phasing out the -102 (which was more
suited as a bomber interceptor for CONUS defense than dogfighting)
earlier
than counterparts in the US or Europe.

Third. did the F-102 have a gun or just internal missiles in a weapon
bay?
The F-106, as I recall, carried Falcon missiles (Or GENIEs*) and later
had a
20mm Vulcan cannon installed as well.

Fourth, the F-102 and F-106 just look cool. Had to say that. Good
designs,
and you can see the evolution in fuselage flow in the later design.
(Though
the previous one had those cool mini-cones at the tail.)


DEP

*There was a massive "Was GENIE a rocket or a missile" debate on another
group, which I won't get into here. I think the verdict was a rocket,
which
it was, guided missile or not.

I have a question: what was/is the policy on use of ANG airplanes? I
have seen several bios that stated George Bush used an F-102 to fly to
Florida for a plant business he was involved in. I presume he did the
usual flight plan and landed at a military installation. What would
be the policy, local or ANG, to a Guard pilot using one of the unit's
planes for something not demonstrably Guard duty? And does/did it
happen as a regular thing?

It was demonstrably Guard duty, in all likelihood. Pilots had to fly certain
hours, and often the destinations were left up to them. My brother returned
from Vietnam and flew Hueys for the ARNG; he flew down to the airport near
our house on one flight so we could come out and meet his crew and look over
the helo. On another occasion he flew a few orbits over a Little League
baseball game I was playing in. Hours were hours, unless they were scheduled
to participate in some kind of collective training event. I believe AC
pilots sometimes do the same thing, even today--there was a case a few years
back where an F-14 pilot flew back to his hometown, landed and met his
family, then departed and tragically piled it in.

Brooks