Germany Lost the War... So What?

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ...
"robert arndt" wrote in message
om...
"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...
"robert arndt" wrote in message
m...
The US postwar history:


I could only wish that the political decision to change direction
eastward would have never come and Sea Lion would have happened. What
would have Britain defended itself with then- the Home Guard with
pitch forks and shotguns? You should thank God a lone German bomber
ditched its bombs on London and saved your nation. Germany could have
kept fighting and by the winter of 1940 you would have ran out of
pilots and planes- had the Germans not diverted to civilian targets
like London.


You really are ignorant of the situation in 1940 arent you.

The simple reality is that by the end of August 1940 the RAF were STRONGER
than at the beginning of the BOB. Quite simply they were building aircraft
and training pilots faster than the luftwaffe and more than replacing their
losses. Dowdings idea of readiness meant that each squadron should have
15 operational arcraft and twice that number of pilots. There were aircraft
to spare and while the pilot situation was tighter there were still around
20 piots per squadron

Conversely when Milch surveyed the Luftwaffe front line units at the
same time he found that most Luftwaffe units were between 25 and 30%
under strength. It was the Luftwaffe that was losing the battle of
attrition.
The Ju-87's had already been withdrawn and the Me-110's were now
having to be escorted by 109's

As for Sealion that would have been one of the biggest disasters
of German arms

Setting aside the fact that Britain had 13 combat ready divisions
available in the SE of England there's the little matter of the
Royal Navy. The Kriegsmarine could field 1 BB, 1 CA and 10 Destroyers
The RN had available 5 BB's , 11 Cruisers and 76 Destroyers.

Then of course the RAF has several hundred bomber
tasked with repelling the invasion ready for action

The Invasion fleet consisted of Rhine barges towed at 4 knots
that would have taken 30 hours to make the crossing and would
sink in anything much more than flat calm. They of course had no
LCT's so there chosen method of moving heavy weapons
was to blow off the bows of the barge with HE.

Meanwhile the defences of the target chose, Dover , consisted
of heavy coastal artillery (14",9.2" 8" and 6" guns) augmented by
Army artillery units firing from gun pits behind the town and
in and around it were 2 divisions of the Territorial army,
1 Indian Brigade, 1 New Zealan Division, 1 Armoured division
equipped with Matilda II tanks that were impervious to anything
short of an 88, 1 Canadian division and a further armoured brigde

I had a brother-in-law who was commanding a battery of 105mm howitzers
during the battle of France and he had a younger brother who was an
infantry officer in the same campaign (later killed during the Battle
of the Bulge). Their letters home, which we still have, are quite
revealing.

The battery ended up somewhere in the Amiens area where they had to
prepare and train for Sealion. The brother was near Rouen basically
doing the same thing. At that time the motorised element of the
battery was one motor car and a field ambulance. Everything else was
horsedrawn. They were totally unprepared and untrained for an
invasion and equipment for such an enterprise was not forthcoming,
perhaps because it did not exist in Germany at the time(?). The
professional officers, at least at his level, considered the whole
idea crazy and suicidal. And no amount of national socialist ardour
and chivvying seemed to change that attitude. When Sealion was
abandoned the sense of relief in the letters home is palpable. Its
the relief of professional soldiers when a madcap scheme is finally
ditched as reason begins to prevail.

Eugene

"Michael Zaharis" wrote in message
...


Kevin Brooks wrote:

"robert arndt" wrote in message
om...

Korean nuclear bomb but they just laughed in our faces and produced 8
more in addition to the 2 they already had. We did nothing and still
do nothing.


So all of that diplomatic stuff (being conducted with the PRC's
participation) is "nothing", huh? Odd how you condemn the US for not
continuing to pursue other means in regards to Iraq, but seemingly think
we
should be streaming across the 38th parallel at the drop of a hat...


Brooks, obvious that you just don't get it. Whatever the US does is
wrong. If we go to war, we shouldn't have. If we don't go to war, we
should have.

Please, do keep up. ;-)

Yeah, I keep forgetting that I am dealing with Arndt, a guy who tries to
justify German aggression during WWII while at the same time trying to
condemn the US for going into Iraq.

Brooks

In article , robert
arndt wrote:

According to the World Almanac 2004:

1. US economy= 10.4 trillion
2. Japanese economy= 3.5 trillion
3. German economy= 2.2 trillion

Notice unfair comparison. US equivalent to EU.

But the EU isn't a nation (thank heavens). Who would want to be a part
of a nation where Germans get a say in foreign policy, French in
defence, and the UK in healthcare?

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
--
To err is human
To forgive is not
Air Force Policy

That's a total of 11.091 trillion, more than the US economy.

Are you implying that the European Union has a "combined" GNP?

robert arndt wrote:

(various bulldren snipped)

Wow, how underwhelming it all is. We seem to
be able to pound into submission any puny Third
World nation without a significant AF

(more snippage)

Who you calling 'we,' sonny boy?

Have you attempted to do anything about it,
other than spamming multiple newsgroups?

Gonna do anything with your life after you grow up?

My bet is, like most people of your stripe, you'll
find a reasonably good job and sock away the
bucks enjoying a life bought and paid for you by
men and women in uniform.



Jeff

Keith Willshaw wrote:
Then there's the little matter of the fall of communism, the
dissolution of the Warsaw Pact and the collapse of the USSR

robert arndt wrote:
Which is more due to Soviet citizens standing in line for bread 8 hrs
a day and the forever unattainable 5 year plans they made... not to
mention devoting almost all their resources to defense and the

Multiple problems all devolving from the same cause... and why
exactly did they do this?

C'mon, I know you can say it, even if it galls you.

"The West."

There, was that so hard?


The war aims of protecting the Kosovans from Serbian ethnic cleansing
were achieved

Oh please, too little too late. Serb soldiers insulted International
forces as they left Kosovo and threatened ethnic minorities right in
front the peacekeepers.

Killing pathetic bullies may feel good, but when is it right to
pull the trigger? The only reason the Serbs acted this way
was because they knew they were safe doing it.

Killing someone over an insult is the sort of the thing your
favorite SS boys did. look where it got 'em.


A US Naval warship which should have been adequately protected. Taken
out by a raft of explosives.

You'd have our guys shoot any boat which nears one of our
ships? You must not own a pleasure boat!

By your lights you'd have us kill every living thing in
Afghanstan and Iraq, I guess, just to be sure we got the
Bad Guys (tm).

Or do you have a (realistic) better idea?


Oh thank God for British token forces whose own weapons and gear are
****. I assume you're British, so don't you read your own papers for
God-save-the-Queen sakes!!! All you guys did was sit in the rear and
deliver humanitarian aid while the US drove downtown to Baghdad.

Gag. Bet you wouldn't have the balls to say that to a guy who was
there.



Jeff

robert arndt wrote:
According to the World Almanac 2004:

1. US economy= 10.4 trillion
2. Japanese economy= 3.5 trillion
3. German economy= 2.2 trillion

Notice unfair comparison. US equivalent to EU.

01. Austria= 226 billion
02. Belgium= 298 billion
03. Denmark= 156 billion
04. Finland= 1.5 trillion
05. France= 1.5 trillion
06. Germany= 2.2 trillion
07. Greece= 201 billion
08. Ireland= 119 billion
09. Italy= 1.4 trillion
10. Luxembourg= 20 billion
11. Netherlands= 434 billion
12. Portugal= 182 billion
13. Spain= 828 billion
14. Sweden= 227 billion
15. UK= 1.5 trillion

That's a total of 11.091 trillion, more than the US economy.

"Unfair"?

Bobby, you crack me up. Get that mob in step (economically)
and then come talk to me.



Jeff

Subject: Germany Lost the War... So What?
From: "Jeff Crowell"
Date: 2/19/04 11:54 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

robert arndt wrote:

(various bulldren snipped)

Wow, how underwhelming it all is. We seem to
be able to pound into submission any puny Third
World nation without a significant AF

(more snippage)

Who you calling 'we,' sonny boy?

Have you attempted to do anything about it,
other than spamming multiple newsgroups?

Gonna do anything with your life after you grow up?

My bet is, like most people of your stripe, you'll
find a reasonably good job and sock away the
bucks enjoying a life bought and paid for you by
men and women in uniform.



Jeff



I went to war and nobody owes me anything. I went because I wanted to.
I went the day I was 18 and before I could couint to 10, I was 10,000 feet
over Germany. And that is where I wanted to be. And no one is beholding to me
for it. And if I had it to do again, I would.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

By your lights you'd have us kill every living thing in
Afghanstan and Iraq, I guess, just to be sure we got the
Bad Guys (tm).

Or do you have a (realistic) better idea?


Arn't would deploy the 61th SS "Snowballfight" Panzer Div, which would mop up
the entire mid-east in 48 hours.

"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message ...
"Tuollaf43" wrote in message
om...
"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...
"robert arndt" wrote in message
m...
The US postwar history:


Facts arent your strong point are they ?

Korea: stalemate

South Korea was saved from the invading forces of the DPRK
and now a prosperous democracy and ally. Meanwhile the
DPRK moulders in a prison of its own making.

Cuban Missile Crisis: stalemate

Nope, the Soviet missiles were withdrawn as the US demanded.

And the Jupiters from Turkey as Russia demanded, along with assurances
that US would not invade Cuba. Stalemate.

Older missiles already planned for removal--we had a new program coming
online about that time which you may have heard of...Polaris? We also
removed the Thors from the UK at about the same time, and for the same
reasons--they were liquid fueled and had been made superfluous.

Are you disputing the fact that missiles in turkey were removed on the
insistence of the soviets? Then you are utterly wrong.

The fact that the removed system was obsolete and due for removal
anyway is immaterial. All you can claim is that the soviets could have
bartered de-nuclearization of Cuba for some more useful concession -
not that there was no concession.


snip

Afghanistan: attack on another unworthy adversary. Taliban and Osama
escape into Pakistan. International force needed again. Failure.

Success , Afghanistan is no longer a safe haven for terrorist groups

Terrorists out, drug lords in. And I suppose all those reports of
Taliban resurgence in the Pashtun areas are all propaganda.

Uhmmm... the key at this point is,as Keith pointed out, it is no longer
serving as an open bazaar and training ground for terrorists--

If Taliban comes, can Osama be far behind?

and that a few
other nations took note and became a bit less receptive of other terrorist
operations.

This is undoubtedly true. And certainly a good achievement.


snip


Germany had a larger population than any 10 states combined

LOL! Tell us more.

Uhmmm...the total population of Germany in 1940 was some 80 million, the US
population was about 130 million, with the top four states (NY, PA, TX, CA)
only accounting for some 34 million--so you can run the numbers further if
you like, but it appears Keith's statement is in fact correct.

www.ciaonet.org/book/schweller/appendix.html


and controlled the combined industries of western europe
and couldnt even beat Britain.

Before the War Germany was a major (but not predominant) power in
Europe. Today it still is a major (but not predominant) power in
Europe.

Thank goodness for the Marshall Plan, huh?

Before the war Britain was a major world power with a globe
spanning empire - today it is a mere lackey to the US.

That's not correct. The UK remains an independent nation;

There are degrees of independence. And I never said UK is not
independence, merely a US lackey.

that it has
happened to agree with the US in more cases than it disagrees is as much a
product of common values than anything else.

ummm. I dare say you could be right. Both seem to value oil over life,
propaganda over facts.

Reading anything further into
it merely indicates a degree of paranoia on your part.

Perhaps reading anything less indicateds a degree of myopia on your
part?

And why in the world would anyone be afraid of the UK? Fear of US is
understandable - its rich, powerful and governed by a mad hatter. But
why would US+UK be particularly more frightful. It is like arguing
that you are afraid of the gorilla because a chipmunk is backing it
up.


Germany might
not have won,

No, there is no doubt--she did not win. Thank goodness for that, huh?

You feel very grateful, perhaps with cause. I dont have any particular
reason to feel happy or unhappy about the German loss. To me it is a
story of distant land in a distant time. Personally it is as
emotionally immediate to me as Napoleans loss in Russia or Roman
razing of Carthage; I dont grit my teeth at massacres of the
assyrians, the golden horde, nazis or the bomber command. It is just
sad but engrossing history to me.

I have seen sufficient bad stuff in my own life time - I dont need to
weep for generations long past. Learning from them is enough.

Despite the untold tragedy and suffering the second world war wrought,
there is atleast one shining bright point about that whole tragic
affair. Thanks in large measure to Hitler and Roosevelt, the British
Empire is now history.

BTW I wonder when colonialism will be history.


but Britain sure seems to have lost.

Lost what? Are you sure you are not confusing the UK with *France*?

I am talking about the fortunes of nations on a larger scale, not
battles and wars. Think big (if at all possible).

France was crushed in the first world war. It is yet to recover from
that beating.

UK was smashed in the second world war, not as badly as france, but
smashed non the less.


Now
France *did* lose, just like Germany eventually lost...

Indeed Germany lost. But it seemed to have bounced back pretty much to
the same stature it had before the war. Cant say the same for France
or UK can you?

sorry if that all
upsets you, but them's the facts.

So nice of you to be concerned about my happiness Grofaz. Thanks.


Brooks


Keith