Spoiler Signal

Perhaps we should consider teaching that the first thought with a
sudden signal (fan, wag, rock, ...) should be check your
configuration, particularly the spoilers. It should not take more
than a second or two. If the signal really is to release, there would
be a very slight delay to pull the knob, but it would avoid some bad
consequences, and the the tow pilot still has the ability to dump the
glider.

On Jul 23, 11:15*pm, wrote:
Perhaps we should consider teaching that the first thought with a
sudden signal (fan, wag, rock, ...) should be check your
configuration, particularly the spoilers. *It should not take more
than a second or two. *If the signal really is to release, there would
be a very slight delay to pull the knob, but it would avoid some bad
consequences, and the the tow pilot still has the ability to dump the
glider.

This sounds like a good idea, especially giving that the tow pilot may
also give the wrong signal under stress.
There really should be only one signal as suggested in another thread,
which means something wrong, close spoilers or release! But in any
case, radio call should come first, than climb to safe altitude (if
possible) before giving any signal. Safe altitude should be much more
than 200 feet, more like pattern altitude since a glider with fully
opened spoilers will sink like a brick.

Ramy

On Jul 24, 4:59*am, Ramy wrote:
On Jul 23, 11:15*pm, wrote:

Perhaps we should consider teaching that the first thought with a
sudden signal (fan, wag, rock, ...) should be check your
configuration, particularly the spoilers. *It should not take more
than a second or two. *If the signal really is to release, there would
be a very slight delay to pull the knob, but it would avoid some bad
consequences, and the the tow pilot still has the ability to dump the
glider.

This sounds like a good idea, especially giving that the tow pilot may
also give the wrong signal under stress.
There really should be only one signal as suggested in another thread,
which means something wrong, close spoilers or release! But in any
case, radio call should come first, than climb to safe altitude (if
possible) before giving any signal. Safe altitude should be much more
than 200 feet, more like pattern altitude since a glider with fully
opened spoilers will sink like a brick.

Ramy

I disagree. There should be an urgent, serious emergency type signal--
the wing rock, and a not-so-serious, advisory type signal such as the
rudder waggle. If you can't keep the two separated, then perhaps you
need to take up a different hobby where you're actions don't impact on
the lives of the tow pilot or yourself. I don't have the luxury of
getting the glider up to 1000 feet if I throw a valve at 200. It's
much more common for the glider to survive a release at 200 feet, than
a tow plane having a serious problem down there and having a good
outcome.

On Jul 24, 5:07*am, 150flivver wrote:


I disagree. *There should be an urgent, serious emergency type signal--
the wing rock, and a not-so-serious, advisory type signal such as the
rudder waggle. *If you can't keep the two separated, then perhaps you
need to take up a different hobby where you're actions don't impact on
the lives of the tow pilot or yourself. *I don't have the luxury of
getting the glider up to 1000 feet if I throw a valve at 200. It's
much more common for the glider to survive a release at 200 feet, than
a tow plane having a serious problem down there and having a good
outcome.

I'd be interested in hearing from tow pilots that had a real in flight
emergency and used the wave off signal. It's always seemed to me to
be a bit like the "too slow" winch signal i.e. if you need to give it
then you're not in a situation to do so.

If there's time to negotiate I'll use the radio, if not I think I'll
be pulling the release.

Andy

On Jul 24, 6:04*am, Andy wrote:
On Jul 24, 5:07*am, 150flivver wrote:



I disagree. *There should be an urgent, serious emergency type signal--
the wing rock, and a not-so-serious, advisory type signal such as the
rudder waggle. *If you can't keep the two separated, then perhaps you
need to take up a different hobby where you're actions don't impact on
the lives of the tow pilot or yourself. *I don't have the luxury of
getting the glider up to 1000 feet if I throw a valve at 200. It's
much more common for the glider to survive a release at 200 feet, than
a tow plane having a serious problem down there and having a good
outcome.

I'd be interested in hearing from tow pilots that had a real in flight
emergency and used the wave off signal. *It's always seemed to me to
be a bit like the "too slow" winch signal i.e. if you need to give it
then you're not in a situation to do so.

If there's time to negotiate I'll use the radio, if not I think I'll
be pulling the release.

Andy

I've never been much in favor of the wing rock with a tow emergency,
but I teach it, we demonstrate it and we encourage proper training so
glider pilots don't release on a rudder wag.

I've had one real tow problem and witnessed others. I had engine
vibration from a stuck valve at about 100ft, got the solo student in
the 2-33 to above 200ft and called over the radio for a release. Which
he did and we both returned safely. We teach 200ft rope break returns
to the airport. If the radio was jammed with other chatter, the wing
rock was next.

Other tow problems I have witnessed include a blown cylinder, the
glider pilot saw the puff of smoke from the tow plane, and almost as
instantly the tow pilot dropped his end of the rope, no radio call, no
wave off. Both returned safely.

Not on tow, but a broken aileron cable on the tow ship after release.
It would have been difficult to do the wave off. The pilot landed
safely in the desert with only a few punctured tires.

As a tow pilot and CFIG, I feel that if I have a true emergency, the
glider pilot will get one radio call, maybe, and then see the rope
dropped from the tow end.

I have used the wing rock to signal a release when the radio was
blocked by other chatter. When we tow a 1-26, we get at least 1000fpm,
so the 1-26 pilot cannot determine if we are in good lift because his
vario is always pegged. Other than what he feels in the seat of his
pants from the climb rate increase. So, with precoordinatio, "Hey tow,
tell me when to get off", I'll rock the wings above 2000ft AGL when
the climb-o-meter shows 1500fpm and increasing.

T
Tow Pilot
CFIG

On Sun, 24 Jul 2011 06:04:28 -0700, Andy wrote:

I'd be interested in hearing from tow pilots that had a real in flight
emergency and used the wave off signal. It's always seemed to me to be
a bit like the "too slow" winch signal i.e. if you need to give it then
you're not in a situation to do so.

Slightly OTT, but....

In the UK the 'too slow' winch signal is simply the glider lowering its
nose. Some years ago it was wing rocking, but that was changed once it
was realised that this can cause tip stalls which are the the last thing
we want on the cable. Lowering the nose is perfect because its dual-
purpose, being both a pre-emptive corrective action *and* suggesting to
the winch driver that more power would be nice.

We still use the fish-tailing 'too fast' signal, though its really only
useful for a fairly mild, slowly increasing overspeed. If its more than
mild I want to be off quicker than most winches can slow down.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Jul 24, 9:04*am, Andy wrote:
On Jul 24, 5:07*am, 150flivver wrote:



I disagree. *There should be an urgent, serious emergency type signal--
the wing rock, and a not-so-serious, advisory type signal such as the
rudder waggle. *If you can't keep the two separated, then perhaps you
need to take up a different hobby where you're actions don't impact on
the lives of the tow pilot or yourself. *I don't have the luxury of
getting the glider up to 1000 feet if I throw a valve at 200. It's
much more common for the glider to survive a release at 200 feet, than
a tow plane having a serious problem down there and having a good
outcome.

I'd be interested in hearing from tow pilots that had a real in flight
emergency and used the wave off signal. *It's always seemed to me to
be a bit like the "too slow" winch signal i.e. if you need to give it
then you're not in a situation to do so.

If there's time to negotiate I'll use the radio, if not I think I'll
be pulling the release.

Andy

I have had 3 real ones, all engine related. In all cases the glider
responded promptly and correctly.
I have done 2 rudder wags for spoilers out. One responded correctly
and fixed the problem. The second released.
Our club includes these signals in our Spring check.
Given all this, I will not do rudder wag until I have placed the
glider pilot in a position where misinterpretation will not be a cause
of an accident.
If I really need him off, it's wing wag and every man for himself.
UH

"Given all this, I will not do rudder wag until I have placed the
glider pilot in a position where misinterpretation will not be a
cause
of an accident."

Now that is a good idea. If you are climbing at all don't wag until
well over 200' AGL. If the climb is that slow the glider pilot should
realize it and be checking his spoilers.

Mike

On Jul 25, 6:35*am, Mike wrote:
"Given all this, I will not do rudder wag until I have placed the
glider pilot in a position where misinterpretation will not be a
cause
of an accident."

Now that is a good idea. If you are climbing at all don't wag until
well over 200' AGL. If the climb is that slow the glider pilot should
realize it and be checking his spoilers.

Mike

That is SOP at many places, why it is not followed/emphasized to all
tow pilots I don't know.

Darryl

"Andy" wrote in message
...
On Jul 24, 5:07 am, 150flivver wrote:


I disagree. There should be an urgent, serious emergency type signal--
the wing rock, and a not-so-serious, advisory type signal such as the
rudder waggle. If you can't keep the two separated, then perhaps you
need to take up a different hobby where you're actions don't impact on
the lives of the tow pilot or yourself. I don't have the luxury of
getting the glider up to 1000 feet if I throw a valve at 200. It's
much more common for the glider to survive a release at 200 feet, than
a tow plane having a serious problem down there and having a good
outcome.

I'd be interested in hearing from tow pilots that had a real in flight
emergency and used the wave off signal. It's always seemed to me to
be a bit like the "too slow" winch signal i.e. if you need to give it
then you're not in a situation to do so.

If there's time to negotiate I'll use the radio, if not I think I'll
be pulling the release.

Andy

I've only *had* to wave off one glider - when the front seal on the engine
failed, coating the windscreen with oil and filling the cockpit (Pawnee)
with smoke. I gave the wing rock and started a spiral down to the field.
Talking with the instructor after the fact and thanking him for the quick
release, he laughed and said he saw wingtips rocking in a cloud of smoke.
He released at the initial puff of smoke.

Dan