The rudder waggle signal does not work

Hi,

Let me just just add couple of thoughts regarding radio usage
and experiences with it in different part of the world.

I live and fly in Poland where radio is installed in most probably
every single glider and towplane. That's not a strict law requirement,
you can fly in class G airspace without one but every flight club
I know or heard of requires it with a strict "no radio - no fly"
policy.

Batteries "management" (for club gliders):
- charged overnight, every pilot has to connect the one he
used to the charger at the end of a day,
- in the morning, you take a battery and check its voltage (under
resistance),
- mandatory radio check during pre-flight inspection.

There is no standard phraseology only common practices:
- towplanes use shortened call signs, one-two letters at most,
e.g. "sierra faster!" (glider to towplane),
- gliders use their competition numbers as call signs,
- only student pilots wait for wing-rock signal to release,
- pilots release when they feel it's apriopriate and signal via radio
e.g. "papa november released",
- usually it's stated what's the minimum release height.

On a good day in my club there are usually 2 towplanes and
2 winches in use
During a competition there can be 8 towplanes in use and
radio communication is reduced to emergency+start signals only.

Regarding open spoilers, there's always a person on the ground
coordinating tows, landings, etc. and every start is observed
so he can signal glider to close spoilers via radio.
Of course if spoilers open later it's up to a towplane to signal it.
Also more performant gliders with water balast keep spoilers open a
little
for first several seconds to stabilize wings and reduce risk of a wing
drop.
So it's guaranteded a pilot has his hand on a spoiler handle in this
case.

Just to summarize, in my opinio radios increase safety a lot.
But of course they're not a remedy to safety problems.

Regards,
Wiktor


On 25 Lip, 13:58, "
wrote:
[..]
Now tell me how you're gonna standardize radio? * Who's going to
inspect each installation and how often? *Who's going to insure fully
charged batteries? *Who is going to insure proper volume setting, and
squelch setting? *(in both aircraft?)

*Tell me exactly what would be the "standard" phraseology for each
possible emergency scenario?

Tell me exaclty, How do I know which tow plane pilot is talking to
which glider pilot ? *(many operations have several tow going on at
the same time....

I can imagine hearing over the radio....."release, release, release!"
and having 4 glider release at the same time and all try to land back
at the field!

Or maybe this scenario....

Glider, ASW 20, (I think) *N 234 BC) or is it 345?......anyway....the
glider being towed by the red pawnee....you know N
789F......Yeah...you......anyway....I do have an important safety
message for you....

OK this is glider BC.....Towplane go ahead....

Roger this is towplane....You are about to die! * Over....

Cookie

On Jul 26, 1:15*am, Ramy wrote:
On Jul 25, 5:56*pm, "





wrote:
On Jul 25, 4:12*pm, Ramy wrote:

On Jul 25, 4:58*am, "

wrote:
On Jul 24, 11:16*pm, guy wrote:

Time to get real and standardize what we are doing in the aviation
community.
Radios. *Person to person communication. *Not perfect but a heck of a
lot better than some pilot trying to decide what the tow plane is
doing.
Radios. *Transponders. *Flarm if you want to add one more layer but
NOT a substitution for a transponder.
That is my take.
Flying ist becomes even easier to remember....

Now tell me how you're gonna standardize radio? * Who's going to
inspect each installation and how often? *Who's going to insure fully
charged batteries? *Who is going to insure proper volume setting, and
squelch setting? *(in both aircraft?)

*Tell me exactly what would be the "standard" phraseology for each
possible emergency scenario?

Tell me exaclty, How do I know which tow plane pilot is talking to
which glider pilot ? *(many operations have several tow going on at
the same time....

I can imagine hearing over the radio....."release, release, release!"
and having 4 glider release at the same time and all try to land back
at the field!

Or maybe this scenario....

Glider, ASW 20, (I think) *N 234 BC) or is it 345?......anyway.....the
glider being towed by the red pawnee....you know N
789F......Yeah...you......anyway....I do have an important safety
message for you....

OK this is glider BC.....Towplane go ahead....

Roger this is towplane....You are about to die! * Over....

Cookie

Cookie, I just hope you teach your tow pilots to climb to a safe
altitude if possible before giving a rudder wag . If not, please let
us know where you tow so we can avoid towing there.

Ramy- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Ramy.....

Let me ask you this...

Do you know what the rudder waggle signal means??
If you get the rudder waggle signal shortly after take off...what
would you do???

Do you know any glider pilots who do not know what the rudder waggle
signal means???
Do you know any tow pilots who do not know what the rudder waggle
signal means??

Just asking..

Cookie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Of course I know the signals. And so did most pilots who failed to
recognize it correctly during emergency or even during BFR, as clearly
evident from reading those threads and hearing about incidents and
accidents over the years. This includes very experience pilots and
CFIG's. Most of them lived to tell about it, but quiet a few didn't.
Based on my anecdotal statistics, 80%-90% of those reading this will
fail to recognize the signal correctly in true emergency. I am hoping
that at least those who are following these threads are now more aware
of this potential deadly confusion and will develope a reaction to
always check their spoilers first if the tow goes wrong or if the tow
pilot signaling something. It only takes a split of a second extra
before deciding to release.

Ramy- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So you are saying that you would probably get the signal wrong???

Do you do a pre take off check list?

Do you "close and lock" ths spoilers as part of your pre take off
check list?



Cookie

On Jul 26, 1:15*am, Ramy wrote:
On Jul 25, 5:56*pm, "





wrote:
On Jul 25, 4:12*pm, Ramy wrote:

On Jul 25, 4:58*am, "

wrote:
On Jul 24, 11:16*pm, guy wrote:

Time to get real and standardize what we are doing in the aviation
community.
Radios. *Person to person communication. *Not perfect but a heck of a
lot better than some pilot trying to decide what the tow plane is
doing.
Radios. *Transponders. *Flarm if you want to add one more layer but
NOT a substitution for a transponder.
That is my take.
Flying is expensive. *Get over it. *Buy the equipment. *Batteries are
no longer an excuse.
We are not hang gliders jumping off some cliff.
We are sharing a crowded and complex airspace and airport with all
kinds of traffic.

Guy...

Last time I looked they were called "Standard American Soaring
Signals"

I can think of nothing more standard.......I was taught the "check
spoiler signal"....I teach the "check spoiler signal"

Every tow pilot I ever dealt with knows the check spoiler
signal......I teach every one of my students the check spoiler
signal.....This weekend I went to two gliderports and asked every
pilot and every tow pilot either what does the rudder waggle during
tow mean, or what is the signal for check spoiler?......every single
guy got it right.....This IS THE standard....

There is nothing more standard than this signal!!!

Now let's add the fact that this is one of the "your life may depend
on this signal" signals....It becomes even easier to remember....

Now tell me how you're gonna standardize radio? * Who's going to
inspect each installation and how often? *Who's going to insure fully
charged batteries? *Who is going to insure proper volume setting, and
squelch setting? *(in both aircraft?)

*Tell me exactly what would be the "standard" phraseology for each
possible emergency scenario?

Tell me exaclty, How do I know which tow plane pilot is talking to
which glider pilot ? *(many operations have several tow going on at
the same time....

I can imagine hearing over the radio....."release, release, release!"
and having 4 glider release at the same time and all try to land back
at the field!

Or maybe this scenario....

Glider, ASW 20, (I think) *N 234 BC) or is it 345?......anyway.....the
glider being towed by the red pawnee....you know N
789F......Yeah...you......anyway....I do have an important safety
message for you....

OK this is glider BC.....Towplane go ahead....

Roger this is towplane....You are about to die! * Over....

Cookie

Cookie, I just hope you teach your tow pilots to climb to a safe
altitude if possible before giving a rudder wag . If not, please let
us know where you tow so we can avoid towing there.

Ramy- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Ramy.....

Let me ask you this...

Do you know what the rudder waggle signal means??
If you get the rudder waggle signal shortly after take off...what
would you do???

Do you know any glider pilots who do not know what the rudder waggle
signal means???
Do you know any tow pilots who do not know what the rudder waggle
signal means??

Just asking..

Cookie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Of course I know the signals. And so did most pilots who failed to
recognize it correctly during emergency or even during BFR, as clearly
evident from reading those threads and hearing about incidents and
accidents over the years. This includes very experience pilots and
CFIG's. Most of them lived to tell about it, but quiet a few didn't.
Based on my anecdotal statistics, 80%-90% of those reading this will
fail to recognize the signal correctly in true emergency. I am hoping
that at least those who are following these threads are now more aware
of this potential deadly confusion and will develope a reaction to
always check their spoilers first if the tow goes wrong or if the tow
pilot signaling something. It only takes a split of a second extra
before deciding to release.

Ramy- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Ramy....

My questions were directed at you personally....not for you to answer
for others....

Safety comes one pilot at a time...

Cookie

On Jul 26, 6:23*am, Wiktor Moskwa wrote:
Hi,

Let me just just add couple of thoughts regarding radio usage
and experiences with it in different part of the world.

I live and fly in Poland where radio is installed in most probably
every single glider and towplane. That's not a strict law requirement,
you can fly in class G airspace without one but every flight club
I know or heard of requires it with a strict "no radio - no fly"
policy.

Batteries "management" (for club gliders):
*- charged overnight, every pilot has to connect the one he
used to the charger at the end of a day,
*- in the morning, you take a battery and check its voltage (under
resistance),
*- mandatory radio check during pre-flight inspection.

There is no standard phraseology only common practices:
*- towplanes use shortened call signs, one-two letters at most,
* *e.g. "sierra faster!" (glider to towplane),
*- gliders use their competition numbers as call signs,
*- only student pilots wait for wing-rock signal to release,
*- pilots release when they feel it's apriopriate and signal via radio
* *e.g. "papa november released",
*- usually it's stated what's the minimum release height.

On a good day in my club there are usually 2 towplanes and
2 winches in use
During a competition there can be 8 towplanes in use and
radio communication is reduced to emergency+start signals only.

Regarding open spoilers, there's always a person on the ground
coordinating tows, landings, etc. and every start is observed
so he can signal glider to close spoilers via radio.
Of course if spoilers open later it's up to a towplane to signal it.
Also more performant gliders with water balast keep spoilers open a
little
for first several seconds to stabilize wings and reduce risk of a wing
drop.
So it's guaranteded a pilot has his hand on a spoiler handle in this
case.

Just to summarize, in my opinio radios increase safety a lot.
But of course they're not a remedy to safety problems.

Regards,
Wiktor

On 25 Lip, 13:58, "
wrote:



[..]
Now tell me how you're gonna standardize radio? * Who's going to
inspect each installation and how often? *Who's going to insure fully
charged batteries? *Who is going to insure proper volume setting, and
squelch setting? *(in both aircraft?)

*Tell me exactly what would be the "standard" phraseology for each
possible emergency scenario?

Tell me exaclty, How do I know which tow plane pilot is talking to
which glider pilot ? *(many operations have several tow going on at
the same time....

I can imagine hearing over the radio....."release, release, release!"
and having 4 glider release at the same time and all try to land back
at the field!

Or maybe this scenario....

Glider, ASW 20, (I think) *N 234 BC) or is it 345?......anyway....the
glider being towed by the red pawnee....you know N
789F......Yeah...you......anyway....I do have an important safety
message for you....

OK this is glider BC.....Towplane go ahead....

Roger this is towplane....You are about to die! * Over....

Cookie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Right..some good points but more to ponder

Hand on spoiler shoud be for all flights....ballast or not....

Radio now requires additional training and practice to learn the
established "standards": of radio use....
Radio requires new layers of complexity to the system....such as
chargers....ground personel etc...
Tow plane signals are still needed and used
Radio is a great conveninece..but must be limited during high volume

Radio shifts the onus of safety respossibility away from the pilot and
places it onto others (ground crew, tow pilot etc)

Cookie

On Jul 25, 4:12*pm, Ramy wrote:
On Jul 25, 4:58*am, "





wrote:
On Jul 24, 11:16*pm, guy wrote:

Time to get real and standardize what we are doing in the aviation
community.
Radios. *Person to person communication. *Not perfect but a heck of a
lot better than some pilot trying to decide what the tow plane is
doing.
Radios. *Transponders. *Flarm if you want to add one more layer but
NOT a substitution for a transponder.
That is my take.
Flying is expensive. *Get over it. *Buy the equipment. *Batteries are
no longer an excuse.
We are not hang gliders jumping off some cliff.
We are sharing a crowded and complex airspace and airport with all
kinds of traffic.

Guy...

Last time I looked they were called "Standard American Soaring
Signals"

I can think of nothing more standard.......I was taught the "check
spoiler signal"....I teach the "check spoiler signal"

Every tow pilot I ever dealt with knows the check spoiler
signal......I teach every one of my students the check spoiler
signal.....This weekend I went to two gliderports and asked every
pilot and every tow pilot either what does the rudder waggle during
tow mean, or what is the signal for check spoiler?......every single
guy got it right.....This IS THE standard....

There is nothing more standard than this signal!!!

Now let's add the fact that this is one of the "your life may depend
on this signal" signals....It becomes even easier to remember....

Now tell me how you're gonna standardize radio? * Who's going to
inspect each installation and how often? *Who's going to insure fully
charged batteries? *Who is going to insure proper volume setting, and
squelch setting? *(in both aircraft?)

*Tell me exactly what would be the "standard" phraseology for each
possible emergency scenario?

Tell me exaclty, How do I know which tow plane pilot is talking to
which glider pilot ? *(many operations have several tow going on at
the same time....

I can imagine hearing over the radio....."release, release, release!"
and having 4 glider release at the same time and all try to land back
at the field!

Or maybe this scenario....

Glider, ASW 20, (I think) *N 234 BC) or is it 345?......anyway....the
glider being towed by the red pawnee....you know N
789F......Yeah...you......anyway....I do have an important safety
message for you....

OK this is glider BC.....Towplane go ahead....

Roger this is towplane....You are about to die! * Over....

Cookie

Cookie, I just hope you teach your tow pilots to climb to a safe
altitude if possible before giving a rudder wag . If not, please let
us know where you tow so we can avoid towing there.

Ramy- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Ramy....

Lets put and keep the responsibility where it belongs....

The onus is on the glider pilot....not the tow pilot......spoiler open
in flight is a glider pilot problem....

Cookie

On Jul 26, 1:15*am, Ramy wrote:
On Jul 25, 5:56*pm, "





wrote:
On Jul 25, 4:12*pm, Ramy wrote:

On Jul 25, 4:58*am, "

wrote:
On Jul 24, 11:16*pm, guy wrote:

Time to get real and standardize what we are doing in the aviation
community.
Radios. *Person to person communication. *Not perfect but a heck of a
lot better than some pilot trying to decide what the tow plane is
doing.
Radios. *Transponders. *Flarm if you want to add one more layer but
NOT a substitution for a transponder.
That is my take.
Flying is expensive. *Get over it. *Buy the equipment. *Batteries are
no longer an excuse.
We are not hang gliders jumping off some cliff.
We are sharing a crowded and complex airspace and airport with all
kinds of traffic.

Guy...

Last time I looked they were called "Standard American Soaring
Signals"

I can think of nothing more standard.......I was taught the "check
spoiler signal"....I teach the "check spoiler signal"

Every tow pilot I ever dealt with knows the check spoiler
signal......I teach every one of my students the check spoiler
signal.....This weekend I went to two gliderports and asked every
pilot and every tow pilot either what does the rudder waggle during
tow mean, or what is the signal for check spoiler?......every single
guy got it right.....This IS THE standard....

There is nothing more standard than this signal!!!

Now let's add the fact that this is one of the "your life may depend
on this signal" signals....It becomes even easier to remember....

Now tell me how you're gonna standardize radio? * Who's going to
inspect each installation and how often? *Who's going to insure fully
charged batteries? *Who is going to insure proper volume setting, and
squelch setting? *(in both aircraft?)

*Tell me exactly what would be the "standard" phraseology for each
possible emergency scenario?

Tell me exaclty, How do I know which tow plane pilot is talking to
which glider pilot ? *(many operations have several tow going on at
the same time....

I can imagine hearing over the radio....."release, release, release!"
and having 4 glider release at the same time and all try to land back
at the field!

Or maybe this scenario....

Glider, ASW 20, (I think) *N 234 BC) or is it 345?......anyway.....the
glider being towed by the red pawnee....you know N
789F......Yeah...you......anyway....I do have an important safety
message for you....

OK this is glider BC.....Towplane go ahead....

Roger this is towplane....You are about to die! * Over....

Cookie

Cookie, I just hope you teach your tow pilots to climb to a safe
altitude if possible before giving a rudder wag . If not, please let
us know where you tow so we can avoid towing there.

Ramy- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Ramy.....

Let me ask you this...

Do you know what the rudder waggle signal means??
If you get the rudder waggle signal shortly after take off...what
would you do???

Do you know any glider pilots who do not know what the rudder waggle
signal means???
Do you know any tow pilots who do not know what the rudder waggle
signal means??

Just asking..

Cookie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Of course I know the signals. And so did most pilots who failed to
recognize it correctly during emergency or even during BFR, as clearly
evident from reading those threads and hearing about incidents and
accidents over the years. This includes very experience pilots and
CFIG's. Most of them lived to tell about it, but quiet a few didn't.
Based on my anecdotal statistics, 80%-90% of those reading this will
fail to recognize the signal correctly in true emergency. I am hoping
that at least those who are following these threads are now more aware
of this potential deadly confusion and will develope a reaction to
always check their spoilers first if the tow goes wrong or if the tow
pilot signaling something. It only takes a split of a second extra
before deciding to release.

Ramy- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Don't understand your logic here......if the guys knew the
signals....the would have closed the spoilers...

Rudder waggle = close spoiler.....

Yes by reading this thread pilots should consider the importance of

Doing a proper pre flight
proper take off check list
keeping hand near or on spoiler handle
having situational awareness when poor climb... check spoiler
Knowing signals.....
Developing an emergency plan tailered to each flight

Not expecting a 'magic voice" to come over the radio to save them once
they got themselves into a pinch...

Cookie

wrote in message
...

Hand on spoiler shoud be for all flights....ballast or not....

NO! In general, you should not have your fingers wrapped around the spoiler
handle on launch, any more than you should have your hand around the release
handle. A bump or a startle could cause you to anadvertantly open the spoilers.
The ergomatics of gliders differ, but I generally prefer to put a fist behind
the spoiler lever. This assures the spoilers stay closed and (incidently)
anchors my hand in the general vicinity of the release.

Radio now requires additional training and practice to learn the
established "standards": of radio use....

....Which any glider pilot should be easily capable of learning...The normal
method that humans use to communicate is the human voice. Nothing is simpler or
more natural for us to process.

Radio requires new layers of complexity to the system....such as
chargers....ground personel etc...

Sorry, that's just nonsense. Radios are cheap, simple to use and reliable.
Further, they are necessary because we share the sky with airplanes, virtually
all of which are radio equipped. It's perfectly reasonable for them to expect
that we have them too. Would you have us eliminate everything from our cockpits
that the Wright Broothers wouldn't recognize?


Vaughn

On Jul 26, 4:34*am, "
wrote:
On Jul 26, 1:15*am, Ramy wrote:





On Jul 25, 5:56*pm, "

wrote:
On Jul 25, 4:12*pm, Ramy wrote:

On Jul 25, 4:58*am, "

wrote:
On Jul 24, 11:16*pm, guy wrote:

Time to get real and standardize what we are doing in the aviation
community.
Radios. *Person to person communication. *Not perfect but a heck of a
lot better than some pilot trying to decide what the tow plane is
doing.
Radios. *Transponders. *Flarm if you want to add one more layer but
NOT a substitution for a transponder.
That is my take.
Flying is expensive. *Get over it. *Buy the equipment. *Batteries are
no longer an excuse.
We are not hang gliders jumping off some cliff.
We are sharing a crowded and complex airspace and airport with all
kinds of traffic.

Guy...

Last time I looked they were called "Standard American Soaring
Signals"

I can think of nothing more standard.......I was taught the "check
spoiler signal"....I teach the "check spoiler signal"

Every tow pilot I ever dealt with knows the check spoiler
signal......I teach every one of my students the check spoiler
signal.....This weekend I went to two gliderports and asked every
pilot and every tow pilot either what does the rudder waggle during
tow mean, or what is the signal for check spoiler?......every single
guy got it right.....This IS THE standard....

There is nothing more standard than this signal!!!

Now let's add the fact that this is one of the "your life may depend
on this signal" signals....It becomes even easier to remember....

Now tell me how you're gonna standardize radio? * Who's going to
inspect each installation and how often? *Who's going to insure fully
charged batteries? *Who is going to insure proper volume setting, and
squelch setting? *(in both aircraft?)

*Tell me exactly what would be the "standard" phraseology for each
possible emergency scenario?

Tell me exaclty, How do I know which tow plane pilot is talking to
which glider pilot ? *(many operations have several tow going on at
the same time....

I can imagine hearing over the radio....."release, release, release!"
and having 4 glider release at the same time and all try to land back
at the field!

Or maybe this scenario....

Glider, ASW 20, (I think) *N 234 BC) or is it 345?......anyway.....the
glider being towed by the red pawnee....you know N
789F......Yeah...you......anyway....I do have an important safety
message for you....

OK this is glider BC.....Towplane go ahead....

Roger this is towplane....You are about to die! * Over....

Cookie

Cookie, I just hope you teach your tow pilots to climb to a safe
altitude if possible before giving a rudder wag . If not, please let
us know where you tow so we can avoid towing there.

Ramy- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Ramy.....

Let me ask you this...

Do you know what the rudder waggle signal means??
If you get the rudder waggle signal shortly after take off...what
would you do???

Do you know any glider pilots who do not know what the rudder waggle
signal means???
Do you know any tow pilots who do not know what the rudder waggle
signal means??

Just asking..

Cookie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Of course I know the signals. And so did most pilots who failed to
recognize it correctly during emergency or even during BFR, as clearly
evident from reading those threads and hearing about incidents and
accidents over the years. This includes very experience pilots and
CFIG's. Most of them lived to tell about it, but quiet a few didn't.
Based on my anecdotal statistics, 80%-90% of those reading this will
fail to recognize the signal correctly in true emergency. I am hoping
that at least those who are following these threads are now more aware
of this potential deadly confusion and will develope a reaction to
always check their spoilers first if the tow goes wrong or if the tow
pilot signaling something. It only takes a split of a second extra
before deciding to release.

Ramy- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Don't understand your logic here......if the guys knew the
signals....the would have closed the spoilers...

Rudder waggle = close spoiler.....

Yes by reading this thread pilots should consider the importance of

Doing a proper pre flight
proper take off check list
keeping hand near or on spoiler handle
having situational awareness when poor climb... *check spoiler
Knowing signals.....
Developing an emergency plan tailered to each flight

Not expecting a 'magic voice" to come over the radio to save them once
they got themselves into a pinch...

Cookie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I give up. Maybe someone else can explain Cookie what I try to point
out about confusion and tunnel vision in emergency which can and did
happen to many pilots, including very experienced pilots and CFIGs.
( and no, it did not happen to me yet, but I am not sure I am immuned)
I even had a tow pilot who is very familiar with tow signals getting
confused and asked me why I am against the rudder waggle release
immidiatly signal...
All I am asking is not to give a rudder wag until at safe altitude if
possible.

Ramy

Nothing to argue with there. I've always felt that this was the
prudent way to use the rudder waggle.

The accident that started this discussion was a cessna 150 with 150 hp
with the Capstan in tow. I believe the Capstan has at least 45 degree
if not vertical speed limiting airbrakes. It is approved for cloud
flying. I flew it at IVSM with Shane, it took hardly any brake to make
a normal approach. I wouldn't be surprised that if the brakes on the
Capstan were full open the combination could not climb

All I am asking is not to give a rudder wag until at safe altitude if
possible.

Ramy

On Tue, 26 Jul 2011 14:34:04 -0700, Tony wrote:

The accident that started this discussion was a cessna 150 with 150 hp
with the Capstan in tow. I believe the Capstan has at least 45 degree
if not vertical speed limiting airbrakes.

You're right: they're vertical speed-limiting brakes.

For those who don't know the Capstan, its brakes are at least as powerful
as those on a Puchacz, which also has vertical speed-limiting brakes.
I've only flown a Capstan once. At the end of that flight P1 demoed the
brakes with much the steepest approach and landing I've ridden through:
it made a fully braked ASW-20 approach, which I've flown quite a lot,
look shallow.


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