Air Force uniform prototype makes debut

BUFDRVR wrote:

Why do you start #4 & #5 first?

The sequence is; #4 then #5, then the rest. You could use #3 or #6 to start as
well, I'm guessing they just picked #4 because they needed to pick an inboard
engine and #4 was the closest to the watchful eyes of the Aircraft Commander
(I'm not really sure why they picked #4 out of the 4 they could have?)

You want to use inboard engines because the bleed air manifold connecting to
the outboard engines is only designed to have cooled air blown into it, not hot
air out of it. Basically, if you start #8, then run up #8 to start the rest,
you can over temp the "plumbing" leading from the #8 engine. Same is true for
#1, #2 and #7. On occasions, the manifold for one of the outboard engines will
stick open after the switch has been placed to CLOSED and either during the
anti-ice check, or initial takeoff you'll get a manifold overheat light. The
bad part is, you have no idea which engine and have to go through a little
"trial and error" to figure out which engine is the criminal. On takeoff the
light comes on immediately upon turning the air conditioning on (somewhere
prior to 10,000').

BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

So all the engines are all "plumbed" together? As long as one of the 8 is running,
you can send "starting air" to the others (within the limits you mentioned.)?

Starting is all with bleed air, no electric motors?

Given all this complexity, why was an APU not fitted? It would not seem to add
much to the plumbing. Is this due to the general plan of a large AFB with lots of
handy ground techs and their equipment running around?

Bob McKellar

So all the engines are all "plumbed" together?

Yes.

As long as one of the 8 is running,
you can send "starting air" to the others (within the limits you mentioned.)?

Yes.

Starting is all with bleed air, no electric motors?

The starters ("spark") are DC, but initial engine rotation is provided by bleed
air.

Given all this complexity, why was an APU not fitted?

Are there any jets built before 1962 that have APUs? Did the Comet have an APU?
If the answer is yes to either of those, my only guess would be, to save
weight, they did without the APU. Hell, they took the G model's and H model's
ailerons off to save weight.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

Sure...and just about anyone who starts a/c engines can say the
same...fireguards are a waste of time...

Well, I for one was always glad to have one when we were starting an bombed up,
fueled up F-4 using the cartridge start system. It was always a relief to see
that the world was still there after the black/red smoke cloud cleared. A few
got burned up to the wheels on that little operation. Ditto with hot pit
refueling. There is/was a gate guard as Davis-Monthan AFB that caught fire
with a loss of life when the refueling nozzle slipped off and raw JP4 got
sucked into the inlet on #1, belched flame and caught the pool of fuel under
the jet on fire. Backseater jumped out the left side of the plane as was the
usual route, right into the flame. If he had gone the right side or over the
nose as the fronst seater did he wold have survived.

there is another way to start the engines as well. the Starter cartridges
placed in the engine starter fires from battery power and propels the
engines to motor up. it was use on alerts. and a bitch to clean up after an
exercise. we would put two on # 4 & #5 engines for a normal alert status,
and a cart in all eight engines for a quick start alert.
"BUFDRVR" wrote in message
...
So all the engines are all "plumbed" together?

Yes.

As long as one of the 8 is running,
you can send "starting air" to the others (within the limits you
mentioned.)?

Yes.

Starting is all with bleed air, no electric motors?

The starters ("spark") are DC, but initial engine rotation is provided by
bleed
air.

Given all this complexity, why was an APU not fitted?

Are there any jets built before 1962 that have APUs? Did the Comet have an
APU?
If the answer is yes to either of those, my only guess would be, to save
weight, they did without the APU. Hell, they took the G model's and H
model's
ailerons off to save weight.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it
harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

During the First Gulf War, the 4300 PBW at Diego Garcia was using G model
BUFFs, and Navy JP5 fuel. it was easier to tell the crew to expect a hot
start on all eight engines, and then tell them when one does not hot start.
Also on the first night of air operations we had a bomber with an outboard
hydro leak behind the jet blast of #1and 2 engines. the Hydro fluid caught
fire as it was dripping down and the ground around the wing started to burn.
I was on the plane next door and saw this rushed over with the fire bottle.
the fire guard or the ground man did not see it.

also while on alert I had a bad Cartridge start, flames shot out of the
starter exhaust duct then caught some fuel in the cowling on fire. My crew
was very happy the I was alert that day. with all those warheads onboard, it
could have been a mess. fire guards had a job, but prey that they never have
to use it. Plus you want one that can keep his mind on what he is doing.
"Smartace11" wrote in message
...
Sure...and just about anyone who starts a/c engines can say the
same...fireguards are a waste of time...

Well, I for one was always glad to have one when we were starting an
bombed up,
fueled up F-4 using the cartridge start system. It was always a relief to
see
that the world was still there after the black/red smoke cloud cleared. A
few
got burned up to the wheels on that little operation. Ditto with hot pit
refueling. There is/was a gate guard as Davis-Monthan AFB that caught
fire
with a loss of life when the refueling nozzle slipped off and raw JP4 got
sucked into the inlet on #1, belched flame and caught the pool of fuel
under
the jet on fire. Backseater jumped out the left side of the plane as was
the
usual route, right into the flame. If he had gone the right side or over
the
nose as the fronst seater did he wold have survived.

and a cart in all eight engines for a quick start alert.

I was actually lucky enough to get to do an 8 engine cart start one afternoon.
ACC was testing new respirators for the crew chiefs, so they picked my jet to
load 8 carts on. It was very cool and I was very surprised at the amount of
smoke, it seemed much more than four times what I was used to.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

nope, Sevice Dress (haven't heard the term Class A's since the 80's and even
then it was outdated)

Sorry for the top post...bad habit

"B2431" wrote in message
...
From: "Gord Beaman" )

"Tex Houston" wrote:


"BUFDRVR" wrote in message
...
I've been on active duty for 12 years and I'm wearing (in one
combination or another) my fourth service dress!

Yeah, that's what we always heard too, about bomber pilots, and
navigators.

Jack

You were asking for that one Buf!...


OK, I'm going to admit, I don't get it!! I always appreciate humor,
someone
clue me in .......


BUFDRVR

One word...dress. I was funny but not when it has to be explained.

Tex

...and it's a sure sign that you've been 'in too long' when the
phrase 'service dress' doesn't sound a little 'iffy' to you!
--

-Gord.

Don't they call them "class A" anymore?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

"John Keeney" wrote in message
...

"WaltBJ" wrote in message


BTW what is the uniform allowance now - still 2 bucks a month?
Walt BJ


Heck no, over $200 a year....but when you look at the costs of the uniforms
(Battle Dress and Service Dress)....astronomical.

--
Pup
USAF, Retired
Go #88 UPS Racing, Detroit Red Wings,
Ohio State Buckeyes
__________________

"John Keeney" wrote in message ...
"WaltBJ" wrote in message
m...
Change the uniforms again? Jesus X Christ! What's wrong with these
guys' brains? They get up to CoS and all of sudden they think - "Hey,
it's time to change the uniform!" I forget the name of the jerk who

"Hire somebody, fire somebody and paint the lobby."
Was the advice I heard for taking an upper management job.
Since the entire Air Force can't see you changed the color
of the lobby they think they need to change the uniform
to prove they're in charge.
sigh professional managers sigh


Gen. Jumper already did that. He's done a lot of shaking up in last
couple years. The AEF concept, Fit to Fight, and some other programs
are big in that they affect everyone in the AF. He's pretty much done
the "prove they're in charge"