Position Recorders allowed the US for Silver badges?

I spent a bit of time on the SSA website trying to find out if
"Position Recorders" (not an IGC Approved Flight Recorder) are allowed
for Silver badges. The info from 2010 seems to indicate that Position
Recorders are not allowed for Silver badges, unless someone has in
addition a barograph. Did I read this correctly? Is this likely to
change in the future or do I need to order an IGC approved FR from
Santa?

Second question - Would and Out & Return of 60km qualify for a Silver
badge? Can't seem to find a clarification on the SSA website (beside
the definition of Silver = 50+km).

Thanks,

B

On Sep 10, 10:17*pm, Bastoune wrote:
I spent a bit of time on the SSA website trying to find out if
"Position Recorders" (not an IGC Approved Flight Recorder) are allowed
for Silver badges. The info from 2010 seems to indicate that Position
Recorders are not allowed for Silver badges, unless someone has in
addition a barograph. Did I read this correctly? Is this likely to
change in the future or do I need to order an IGC approved FR from
Santa?

Second question - Would and Out & Return of 60km qualify for a Silver
badge? Can't seem to find a clarification on the SSA website (beside
the definition of Silver = 50+km).

Thanks,

B

I believe the information which you seek is on the FAI gliding
website. The FlywithCE recorder is approved in the US as a position
recorder.

I *believe* that for the Silver you have to have one leg of at least
50 km so a 60 km out and return would not qualify. spend some time
with the sporting code and the SSA badge and record guide and your
OO. The paperwork is one of the biggest obstacles to the badge but is
not difficult if you understand what is needed before you attempt the
flight. have fun!

Bastoune wrote:

I spent a bit of time on the SSA website trying to find out if
"Position Recorders" (not an IGC Approved Flight Recorder) are allowed
for Silver badges. The info from 2010 seems to indicate that Position
Recorders are not allowed for Silver badges, unless someone has in
addition a barograph. Did I read this correctly? Is this likely to
change in the future or do I need to order an IGC approved FR from
Santa?

Second question - Would and Out & Return of 60km qualify for a Silver
badge? Can't seem to find a clarification on the SSA website (beside
the definition of Silver = 50+km).

No. The silver distance flight is a 50km leg. A simple 60 km O&R had 30
km legs. But it is not just any 50km leg, and many flight claims fail
because of pilots not paying attention to the 1% altitude rule or not
understanding flight declaration requirements, not properly making
declarations (always make a paper declaration that overrides any
electronic one), or not properly entering OZs etc. on more complex
silver distance flights. The silver badge also has duration and altitude
achievement requirements that you can do on the same or separate
flights.

You are going about this the wrong way by reading the SSA website. You
really have to get the FAI sporting code section 3 and the seperate
annex C OO and pilots guide and read those. Start here
http://www.fai.org/gliding/sc3

Notice the new October 2011 SC3 rules. You also technically are supposed
to read the approval documents for the particular flight recorder (e.g.
the recorder may need sealing to the aircraft etc.).

The SSA website has useful information, links and forms etc. But you
have to read the rules. And especially some well intentioned efforts to
simplify or clarify the rules in SSA documents sometimes actually
complicates this more or results in invalid flights.

The FAI rules will also clarify flight recorder etc. requirements. It is
usually easier to fly with an IGC recorder but it is for example it is
entirely possible to do a straight out silver distance with no recorder
of any type (the tow pilot attests to the release altitude and the
finish altitude is the landing elevation).

There is a lot of stuff to trip up a newcomer but after hitting your
head against this for a while it will start to make sense, either that
or it's the concussion settling in. In SC3 read the definitions section
very carefully and refer to those formal definitions as you read the
main text.

Find a competent OO, somebody who actually understands the FAI rules in
detail and go over your plans and procedures with them well before the
flight.

Darryl

On Sep 10, 8:17*pm, Bastoune wrote:
I spent a bit of time on the SSA website trying to find out if
"Position Recorders" (not an IGC Approved Flight Recorder) are allowed
for Silver badges. The info from 2010 seems to indicate that Position
Recorders are not allowed for Silver badges, unless someone has in
addition a barograph. Did I read this correctly? Is this likely to
change in the future or do I need to order an IGC approved FR from
Santa?

Second question - Would and Out & Return of 60km qualify for a Silver
badge? Can't seem to find a clarification on the SSA website (beside
the definition of Silver = 50+km).

Thanks,

B

The 60km (30 out 30 back) will not qualify as others have stated.

Certain position only recorders may be used for the silver badge, but
you must also have a recording barograph.

Find an experienced mentor in the flying group or club. Some clubs are
now maintaining an approved data logger for club pilots to borrow.
Some club member may have a portable logger you can use.

The SSA web site has a list of approved position only loggers, they
also have a Silver Badge two page guide.

T

On Sep 11, 4:48*pm, T wrote:
Certain position only recorders may be used for the silver badge, but
you must also have a recording barograph.

I'm not sure that's true.

I suspect the tug pilot certifying that you released less than 500m
above the landing point may be good enough (or even higher if your
actual flight is more than 50 km?)

Leaving aside the issue of creating a valid task: There is as of now only one GPS Position Recorder approved by the SSA for Badge attempts, and that is FlyWithCE. I know that we posted this information last year, but I too can't find it on the SSA Website, sorry. We'll get that fixed. As others have mentioned, you still need to carry a "traditional" Barograph recording pressure-based readings. As it stands, there have been no claims using this method in the US to date and very few in several other active gliding countries, largely due to the complexities introduced in having to manage two separate devices.

Please email me or reach out to Rollin Hasness, "The Badge Dude" ) for official clarifications on Badge and Record issues.

Erik Mann (P3)
Chair, SSA Badge and Record Committee

Darryl Ramm wrote:
[snip]
The FAI rules will also clarify flight recorder etc. requirements. It
is
usually easier to fly with an IGC recorder but it is for example it is
entirely possible to do a straight out silver distance with no
recorder
of any type (the tow pilot attests to the release altitude and the
finish altitude is the landing elevation).

Geez which twit wrote this? What I should have said is it's possible to
do the silver distance without a flight or position recorder - but that
still needs a barograph for proving flight continuity. The duration
flight can be done with just OO observation. Maybe to my point that
trying to simplify/explain these rule scan be dangerous and you really
need to study the actual rules.

Darryl

On Sep 11, 6:58*am, Papa3 wrote:
Leaving aside the issue of creating a valid task: * There is as of now only one GPS Position
Recorder approved by the SSA for Badge attempts, and that is FlyWithCE. * I know that we
posted this information last year, but I too can't find it on the SSA Website, sorry. * We'll get
that fixed. * As others have mentioned, you still need to carry a "traditional" Barograph
recording pressure-based readings. * As it stands, there have been no claims using this
method in the US to date and very few in several other active gliding countries, largely due
to the complexities introduced in having to manage two separate devices. *

Just a minor point of clarification, IGC rules permit approval of
"position recorders" which have integral pressure altitude recording
capability, and therefore can be used without a separate barograph.
For example, some FLARM devices are not IGC approved flight recorders,
and have been approved by various countries as combined position
recorders and barographs...

Marc

All,

Thank you very much to all for your inputs. I got quite a few answers
and additional leads to further study the subject (FAI website, SSA
badge team, etc). I appreaciate the heads-up about studying the rules
well ahead. It seems that half of the acheivement of the badge is
understanding the rule book!

Sincerely,

B

On Sep 11, 8:58*am, Papa3 wrote:
Leaving aside the issue of creating a valid task: * There is as of now only one GPS Position Recorder approved by the SSA for Badge attempts, and that is FlyWithCE. * I know that we posted this information last year, but I too can't find it on the SSA Website, sorry. * We'll get that fixed. * As others have mentioned, you still need to carry a "traditional" Barograph recording pressure-based readings. * As it stands, there have been no claims using this method in the US to date and very few in several other active gliding countries, largely due to the complexities introduced in having to manage two separate devices. *

Please email me or reach out to Rollin Hasness, "The Badge Dude" ) for official clarifications on Badge and Record issues. *

Erik Mann (P3)
Chair, SSA Badge and Record Committee

Erik,

I did submit a state record claim last fall using a barograph/
FlywithCE. most of our club badge work this season has been in pursuit
of gold badges and diamond goal.