If I understand FLARM correctly

For Flarm to be effective, the other guy has to have Flarm installed too?

"FLARM (the name being inspired from 'flight alarm') obtains its position from an internal GPS and a barometric sensor and then broadcasts this with forecast data about the future 3d flight track. Its receiver listens for other FLARM devices within typically 3-5 kilometres and processes the information received."

From the above I deduce that Flarm only works if the other guy has Flarm too.

I fly a rental 1-34 and Grob 103 with no radio, no audio vario and in an environment in which at times one can find several gliders in close proximity. I bought a portable Icom A24 radio (recommended) which is only good when the other guy has a radio and either listens to my reports or makes his own. I bought a wrist mounted audio vario so I could listen for lift as opposed to flying with my head in the cockpit (and up my a--) looking for a hopeful move from the vario needle. I bought a parachute when I found myself thermaling with others in close proximity, some of whom did not appear to be lookin' where they were goin'.

I doubt if the rental ships are going to find themselves Flarm equipped and It would appear that these are hard wired, hard installed types of devices. Portables don't appear to be part of the senario. Gee, maybe we need battery powered strobes on the top of the rudder to improve our visibility.

Walt

You can read information on FLARM at

http://www.gliderpilot.org/FLARM

and

http://powerflarm.us/

Not always up to date but covers a lot of info. You can also read the
PowerFLARM manual available on the FLARM web site.

Yes. For FLARM detection to work both aircraft need a Flarm device,
which in the USA means a PowerFLARM. However PowerFLARM (the models in
the USA) also detects transponders (currently Mode-S but Mode-C coming)
and ADS-B 1090ES. There are lots of qualification needed there, and
updates are coming which add more features, you can read other posts
here on that.

There are portable PowerFLARM units. Please go read the lots of
information available on PowerFLARM. The portable units are about twice
the height of a Zaon MRX but with larger antennas - mountable in many
gliders with some thought and can be internal battery powered although
using the ships battery is better. Many pilots are waiting for the
"brick" version as it can be mounted behind the panel/fits with a
already crowded cockpit better than the portable unit.

There are fleets of rental/training gliders that are being fully
PowerFLARM equipped, e.g. Williams Soaring Center where I fly out of is
equipping all their training/rental gliders and towplanes etc. and many
private owners there will be installing them as well. A (partial) list
of owners who have committed to install PowerFLARM is at
http://www.gliderpilot.org/Pilots-purchasing-PowerFLARM

If other glider traffic concerns you I would be raising the question of
installing PowerFLARM in those local gliders. Well if they don't have a
working VHF radio I'd do that first. Seems like you are trying hard to
personally fill in stuff here that really should be in the rental gliders.


Darryl


On 9/11/11 3:46 PM, Walt Connelly wrote:
For Flarm to be effective, the other guy has to have Flarm installed
too?

"FLARM (the name being inspired from 'flight alarm') obtains its
position from an internal GPS and a barometric sensor and then
broadcasts this with forecast data about the future 3d flight track. Its
receiver listens for other FLARM devices within typically 3-5 kilometres
and processes the information received."

From the above I deduce that Flarm only works if the other guy has Flarm
too.

I fly a rental 1-34 and Grob 103 with no radio, no audio vario and in an
environment in which at times one can find several gliders in close
proximity. I bought a portable Icom A24 radio (recommended) which is
only good when the other guy has a radio and either listens to my
reports or makes his own. I bought a wrist mounted audio vario so I
could listen for lift as opposed to flying with my head in the cockpit
(and up my a--) looking for a hopeful move from the vario needle. I
bought a parachute when I found myself thermaling with others in close
proximity, some of whom did not appear to be lookin' where they were
goin'.

I doubt if the rental ships are going to find themselves Flarm equipped
and It would appear that these are hard wired, hard installed types of
devices. Portables don't appear to be part of the senario. Gee, maybe
we need battery powered strobes on the top of the rudder to improve our
visibility.

Walt

Walt,

Yes it takes two to tango. But PowerFlarm has been preordered by a
very large number of pilots -- so there will be gliders to Flarm with
if you were to buy one. Here in Arizona, for example, virtually every
active pilot has preordered a PowerFlarm unit. One of the two
commercial operators in the state has also ordered a unit to try out
and is considering equipping his fleet of rentals. Rental customers
everywhere should be putting a bug in the ear of the operators to let
them know that you want PowerFlarm in their rental gliders and tow
planes and that you expect it.

Please don't buy into the argument that they are too expensive for a
rental fleet. Compared to the cost or value of any glider, they are
cheap. Compared to the value of your life, they are cheap. There is
a panel mount unit and a portable battery powered unit. To the extent
that your rental operator hasn't established a plan to install
powerFlarm, then your wise recourse is to order a Portable unit and
carry it along on your flights.

Steve Koerner
Flarm advocate in AZ

On Sep 11, 3:46*pm, Walt Connelly Walt.Connelly.
wrote:
For Flarm to be effective, the other guy has to have Flarm installed
too?

"FLARM (the name being inspired from 'flight alarm') obtains its
position from an internal GPS and a barometric sensor and then
broadcasts this with forecast data about the future 3d flight track. Its
receiver listens for other FLARM devices within typically 3-5 kilometres
and processes the information received."

From the above I deduce that Flarm only works if the other guy has Flarm
too.

I fly a rental 1-34 and Grob 103 with no radio, no audio vario and in an
environment in which at times one can find several gliders in close
proximity. *I bought a portable Icom A24 radio (recommended) which is
only good when the other guy has a radio and either listens to my
reports or makes his own. *I bought a wrist mounted audio vario so I
could listen for lift as opposed to flying with my head in the cockpit
(and up my a--) looking for a hopeful move from the vario needle. * I
bought a parachute when I found myself thermaling with others in close
proximity, some of whom did not appear to be lookin' where they were
goin'. *

I doubt if the rental ships are going to find themselves Flarm equipped
and It would appear that these are hard wired, hard installed types of
devices. *Portables don't appear to be part of the senario. *Gee, maybe
we need battery powered strobes on the top of the rudder to improve our
visibility.

Walt

--
Walt Connelly

Steve Koerner is VERY correct. There will be LOTS of PowerFlarms in
the US as soon as the mfgr. gets the bugs worked out and sends the
units to the 600+ US glider pilots that have them on order. Virtually
every glider pilot in Arizona will have one, and most private and
commercial aircraft have transponders, which are also detected by
PowerFlarm, so the sky should be far safer for gliders shortly. Much
like the Prez of the US, who admonished Americans to contact their
representatives about their feelings about how things were progressing
(or not) in DC (which seems to have worked), you should pressure any
folks, companies, organizations who rent gliders to get with the
movement and get them installed in all their aircraft.

Bob T.
19

Originally Posted by Bob

On Sep 11, 3:46*pm, Walt Connelly Walt.Connelly.
wrote:
For Flarm to be effective, the other guy has to have Flarm installed
too?

"FLARM (the name being inspired from 'flight alarm') obtains its
position from an internal GPS and a barometric sensor and then
broadcasts this with forecast data about the future 3d flight track. Its
receiver listens for other FLARM devices within typically 3-5 kilometres
and processes the information received."

From the above I deduce that Flarm only works if the other guy has Flarm
too.

I fly a rental 1-34 and Grob 103 with no radio, no audio vario and in an
environment in which at times one can find several gliders in close
proximity. *I bought a portable Icom A24 radio (recommended) which is
only good when the other guy has a radio and either listens to my
reports or makes his own. *I bought a wrist mounted audio vario so I
could listen for lift as opposed to flying with my head in the cockpit
(and up my a--) looking for a hopeful move from the vario needle. * I
bought a parachute when I found myself thermaling with others in close
proximity, some of whom did not appear to be lookin' where they were
goin'. *

I doubt if the rental ships are going to find themselves Flarm equipped
and It would appear that these are hard wired, hard installed types of
devices. *Portables don't appear to be part of the senario. *Gee, maybe
we need battery powered strobes on the top of the rudder to improve our
visibility.

Walt

--
Walt Connelly

Steve Koerner is VERY correct. There will be LOTS of PowerFlarms in
the US as soon as the mfgr. gets the bugs worked out and sends the
units to the 600+ US glider pilots that have them on order. Virtually
every glider pilot in Arizona will have one, and most private and
commercial aircraft have transponders, which are also detected by
PowerFlarm, so the sky should be far safer for gliders shortly. Much
like the Prez of the US, who admonished Americans to contact their
representatives about their feelings about how things were progressing
(or not) in DC (which seems to have worked), you should pressure any
folks, companies, organizations who rent gliders to get with the
movement and get them installed in all their aircraft.

Bob T.
19

Good info, looks like a portable unit would cost about 2k dollars, certainly worth consideration. Can't think of a good place to put it in a 1-34 but the Grobs and Blaniks look like they might fit. No doubt that if these devices work as advertised, they will save gliders and lives. Hopefully insurance companies might see the value and give discounts to those with such devices.

Lets see, parachute, portable radio, Ascent audio vario, condom catheter, tubing and bag, portable PowerFlarm......this is getting expensive.

Walt

I don’t know the data on locations of glider/glider collisions for
USA, but in the UK most are near the home base gliding site of the two
gliders. A few are on cross countries, and even then some are with
another pilot from the same club on the same task.

For which reason, I have been advocating that anybody obtaining Flarm
should do their best to persuade other glider owners at the same site
– club or private- to fit it too, for the most effective improvement
in alerting.

And, by the way, here in Euroland, where the simple Swiss Flarm is now
OK to fit, many of us do it as a piece of personal carry-on equipment,
with its own battery if there is not an easy way to plug into the main
glider electrics, to overcome officialdom’s need for approved
modifications. I do that on my glider.

Chris N.

On Sep 12, 6:02*pm, Chris Nicholas wrote:
I don’t know the data on locations of glider/glider collisions for
USA, but in the UK most are near the home base gliding site of the two
gliders. A few are on cross countries, and even then some are with
another pilot from the same club on the same task.

For which reason, I have been advocating that anybody obtaining Flarm
should do their best to persuade other glider owners at the same site
– club or private- to fit it too, for the most effective improvement
in alerting.

Chris N.

I would like to endorse Chris's advice, above. For cross country
pilots the gliders we are most likely to collide with will be flown by
our XC practice friends, our contest competitors, or instructors in
the circuit of our own club. These are the pilots that, one way or
another, we can most easily influence to get a Flarm unit. If a
cluster of such pilots can agree to get Flarms then the benefit to
each of them is much greater than if one just considers the overall
percentage of all gliders that are Flarm equipped.

John Galloway

On Sep 12, 1:02*pm, Chris Nicholas wrote:
I don’t know the data on locations of glider/glider collisions for
USA, but in the UK most are near the home base gliding site of the two
gliders. A few are on cross countries, and even then some are with
another pilot from the same club on the same task.

For which reason, I have been advocating that anybody obtaining Flarm
should do their best to persuade other glider owners at the same site
– club or private- to fit it too, for the most effective improvement
in alerting.

And, by the way, here in Euroland, where the simple Swiss Flarm is now
OK to fit, many of us do it as a piece of personal carry-on equipment,
with its own battery if there is not an easy way to plug into the main
glider electrics, to overcome officialdom’s need for approved
modifications. I do that on my glider.

Chris N.

Chris,
American reality is little different.
Majority of the club and commercial operation gliders don't have a
parachute, or radio or audio vario.
Do you think, you can convince someone to buy $2000 PowerFlarm?
No one is offering here inexpensive low key European style Flarm.
For some reason we need to know to the last second of our life, we are
going to get killed by the transponder equipped plane, with no info
from what direction it is coming.
And the range of our PowerFlarm has to be 10 times larger so we use
our batteries 10 times faster. Also our version of Flarm is so big ,
that you might have problem seeing the towplane.
Ryszard Krolikowski

On 9/15/11 6:53 PM, Ryszard Krolikowski wrote:
On Sep 12, 1:02 pm, Chris wrote:
I don’t know the data on locations of glider/glider collisions for
USA, but in the UK most are near the home base gliding site of the two
gliders. A few are on cross countries, and even then some are with
another pilot from the same club on the same task.

For which reason, I have been advocating that anybody obtaining Flarm
should do their best to persuade other glider owners at the same site
– club or private- to fit it too, for the most effective improvement
in alerting.

And, by the way, here in Euroland, where the simple Swiss Flarm is now
OK to fit, many of us do it as a piece of personal carry-on equipment,
with its own battery if there is not an easy way to plug into the main
glider electrics, to overcome officialdom’s need for approved
modifications. I do that on my glider.

Chris N.

Chris,
American reality is little different.
Majority of the club and commercial operation gliders don't have a
parachute, or radio or audio vario.
Do you think, you can convince someone to buy $2000 PowerFlarm?
No one is offering here inexpensive low key European style Flarm.
For some reason we need to know to the last second of our life, we are
going to get killed by the transponder equipped plane, with no info
from what direction it is coming.
And the range of our PowerFlarm has to be 10 times larger so we use
our batteries 10 times faster. Also our version of Flarm is so big ,
that you might have problem seeing the towplane.
Ryszard Krolikowski

I am not sure this deserves a detailed reply, since much of this is just
inaccurate or hyperbole or has been address here before, but here goes
anyhow...

The PowerFLARM platform is here in the USA as its the first and only
FLARM technology to be FCC approved. That is why there are no other
products else being offered here.

Current PowerFLARM pricing is $1,695 for the portable or brick with
separate rectangular display. Not $2,000. Many of the hundreds of glider
pilots who have a PowerFLARM units on order in the USA will pay less
than this price due to the early order/bulk order promotion offered.

The upcoming "brick" unit was developed to provide a system that is more
compact to unobtrusively mount in gliders.

I don't know what counts as "inexpensive European style Flarm units" but
there there seems to often be confusion about what overseas pricing is
for FLARM. Especially with some perception that FLARM units cost
something like $500 or so. Here are some current prices pulled off the
web...

Flarm Classic (LED display, no IGC logger) EU 738 = USD 1,021
Flarm Classic (LED display, IGC logger) EU 818 = USD 1,132
(e.g. see http://www.butterfly-store.de/FLARM/Geraete/)

Flarm MiniBox (no IGC logger, LED display) EU 655 = USD 908
Flarm LX MiniBox (IGC logger, SD reader LCD display) EU 920 = USD 1,391
(e.g. see
http://www.gliderpilotshop.nl/winkel...products_id=56)

Mini OzFLARM Combo (display + mini OzFLarm) AUD 1,049 = USD 1,116
(http://swiftavionics.com.au/shop/minioz-combo/)

There may be discount purchases and promotions overseas that lower these
prices. If you have better prices to compare to PowerFLARM please
provide them. And also remember that this is purely academic since none
of these existing systems are FCC approved, and neither do I ever expect
them to be.

Considering the integrated PCAS and ADS-B receiver capability being
offered in PowerFLARM we are getting a very attractive package at a
reasonable price. The large number of people willing to order PowerFLARM
seems to support that.

There is no claim I aware of with PowerFLARM of range being "ten times
larger" and no proof of battery consumption being "ten times higher". It
has been mentioned that PowerFLARM is intended to have improved range
over traditional systems (and some of that improvement will come from
use of the second receiver antenna as well). FLARM have also stated that
they are operating the FLARM transmitter at higher power in the USA to
provide a margin over interference in the USA 915MHz ISM band and no
doubt the more capable LCD display and 1090MHz/ADS-B receiver will
unavoidably increase power consumption compared to existing FLARM
systems. But that is a tradeoff I expect many pilots will happily accept
(to get FLARM + PCAS).

Existing Flarm units operate roughly around 50mA @ 12VDC (this varies a
lot with display type and options). The PowerFLARM definitely does not
draw ten times this amount (i.e. 0.5 amp). I won't publish my own
PowerFLARM portable measurements here as they are not done in active
FLARM threat environments. I hope FLARM will provide updates on power
consumption specs in future.

I've also seen confusion as well that all the old style FLARM units are
operating on two or so AA batteries with apparently very long run times.
Most FLARM units do not have internal batteries. I think some of that
confusion comes from confusion with the Zaon MRX PCAS unit.

Remember the reports of the worst problems with PowerFLARM internal
battery from Uvalde were with rechargeable batteries operated at very
high temperatures where the battery performance basically collapses. Urs
from FLARM has addressed this here recently. And the overall best option
for most gliders, instead of juggling internal batteries will be to
connect the PowerFLARM to the ships main batteries.

I don't know if you have much practical experience flying with PCAS
systems but many glider pilots who have flow with them find them very
useful devices for warning of other transponder equipped gliders or GA
traffic. And in the USA we have ADS-B coming, with its warts and all,
but ADS-B is going to be widely used in GA and commercial aircraft (by
2020 deployed roughly somewhat as widely as transponders are now). Its a
more complex story but PowerFLARM ability to see ADS-B traffic
(including direction data) will be useful especially in mixed traffic
situations over the coming years. Its pretty nice that we are getting
PCAS and ADS-B capability built into all these systems for what seems to
be not much apparent increase in price over more basic FLARM unit (and
you need to factor in a better display, and FCC certification,
engineering mods etc. to any of those overseas basic FLARM units that
would increase their cost here).

---

I am not aware of any club or FBO in Northern California for example
that do not have parachutes, but I'm happy to be corrected if that's the
case, and most club/FBO gliders in this area have VHF radios or a very
few gliders use handhelds. And at least most gliders intended for XC/XC
training have electric varios. Quite a few have IGC loggers and flight
computers etc. or PDAs or facilities for mounting members PDAs. The
clubs/FBOs I've visited in other USA locations don't seem very far from
this. But then maybe that is just the kind of club/FBO I want to go visit.

Everybody clearly has to manage costs responsibly but clubs flying
poorly equipped clunkers, and no willingness to buy any safety equipment
(which seemed to be the claim here) and/or who don't focus on equipping
gliders well for XC and training new pilots for XC are unlikely to grow
or survive long term. That's not to say a club should necessarily buy
PowerFLARM, especially over other safety related expenditure--that is
something pilots and club needs to evaluate for their particular
situation. But I certainly have been encouraging clubs, FBOs and private
owners to consider PowerFLARM and most of the people I talk to are
planning to adopt this. The momentum behind PowerFLARM adoption in the
USA is already very clear.

Darryl

Hi Darryl
Good reply. However in your discussion of PCAS I got the impression
it is available now in PowerFlarm. If that is true I will immediately
purchase a unity. Otherwise........?
Dave