Is this the future of our sport?

On Nov 11, 11:28*pm, "Sean F (F2)" wrote:
It should be but almost certainly will not be within the SSA.
...
I am sure someone could organize a Grand Prix contest in the US. *Just may not be SSA sanctioned. *I wonder how many might want to try something like this? *Email me if you are smfidlerATgmailDOTcom.

It would be pretty easy to set this up. *And potentially alot of fun. *Handicaps would work fine as well really.

Sean

Why do you assume that it will not be "within" the SSA or not
sanctioned? Have you asked the SSA? Not that I'm aware. Everyone I've
talked to within SSA racing community is very supportive of Grand
Prix. The SSA hugely supported the WGC!

The issue is, I think, that it's not as "easy to set up" as you may
think. There was an effort to set up a US grand prix in Ely Nevada,
which fell apart (I gather, I'm sketchy on details) because of how
hard it was to organize. For all sorts of reasons having nothing to do
with the SSA. (It was a real grand prix, which needs IGC approval.)

This is a volunteer organization. "Someone oughta" is not that
helpful. Organize one!

Especially if all you want is sanction. There is a process for
sanctioning races that don't follow SSA rules. 1-26 are sanctioned
that way. There is a simple checklist of sensible things like "there
must be a CD," "there must be insurance" If you've planned any
sensible race and want SSA sanction, the process is pretty
straightforward. And brings many benefits, including the ssa website
and insurance.

John Cochrane

On Sunday, November 11, 2012 11:28:22 PM UTC-6, Sean F (F2) wrote:
It should be but almost certainly will not be within the SSA.



IMO, Grand Prix glider racing is the only "true" test of competition glider pilots. It is a pure race. No compromise or luck involved. Everyone flies thru the same air at the same time essentially. No conditions improving or declining. No picking the best time to connect the clouds ahead, etc.. No excuses. Very much like one design sailboat racing. In other words, A REAL RACE.



The typical US task consists of an assigned area task (aka AAT or OLC task) and the "start whenever you want" concept. The good guys ideally start 5-15 min behind the "pack" (they refer to them as markers) with the goal of leeching back up to and thru this pack. Pretty difficult to describe this as a "race." More like a hunt. It is easy to catch gliders ahead generally. They have to find the lift. You can fly right to it as they mark it once centered. It is about as "un-pure" of a "race" as you can get really. This is actually part luck, part planning and strategy and park skill. It can only loosely be described as a race. I think a hunt or a draft is almost a better description.



Grand Prix RACING would be alot more fun that even FAI rules (assigned tasks). Again, the game with FAI is to start behind your competitors and leech up to them, then stay with them or pass them.



I suspect that Grand Prix would be alot safer as well. The start would have everyone keenly aware of the proximity of the other gliders (spread laterally over a 3-5 mile start line). The pilots ability to time themselves into the start line accurately (not to early, or late) at the maximum altitude would separate the pack naturally from the very beginning. After that it would further string out naturally as the superior pilots pull ahead as they should. The leaders would have earned the lead and have an opportunity to get ahead, stay ahead and have that lead "ACTUALLY MEAN SOMETHING..." Large gaggles would be smaller to non-existent as the task progressed.



It would be very exciting to have our "race" result in the first pilot home being the winner. How much fun would that be? Maybe a spectator could enjoy (understand) the finish for once? Maybe spot tracking would matter. In fact, the "finish" of a glider race (FAI or US) more than often means absolutely nothing. To me, without the opportunity to finishing first the experience feel less enjoyable. We are always wondering if we managed the course well, or missed something. Seeing another glider along the course means very little as to how well you are doing at that point. In fact, one typically has no idea how one is doing during the AAT task up until the scorer runs his complex software which results in a score (not a time...!). Racing is typically a time comparison, no? We don't really have that concept in glider racing. Its average speed...over widely random distances, paths, etc.



I am sure someone could organize a Grand Prix contest in the US. Just may not be SSA sanctioned. I wonder how many might want to try something like this? Email me if you are smfidlerATgmailDOTcom.



It would be pretty easy to set this up. And potentially alot of fun. Handicaps would work fine as well really.



Sean

Have to disagree almost completely with Sean that a Grand Prix style contest would change much in the way we race. If leeching was such a huge problem in today's races we would talk more about it. Instead, we are contemplating special training camps to emulate team flying (leeching by another term). If not even willful flying with a partner works, how well does the leech do when the better pilot makes all the good decisions? If more variables are thrown in such as area tasks, the winning pilots invariably will be the ones that are truly deserving, especially over a multi-day contest. We all had the experience that even after a mass-start we only see other competitors around turn points and on final glide.
Since avoiding the 'start gate roulette' would be for me the only advantage of a Grand Prix - especially in a handicapped race - I'd rather stay with the rules we have.

Herb

Short answer is YES!!!!!

I remember watching NZ GP on a middle of the night. Last day Uli Schwenck got in front, but low. If he got home first he won. I was almost ****ing my pants of the excitement. Honestly it was the best sporting event by far, that I have witnessed at home. Spectaculary produced, real excitement.

People gotta realize that gliding is dangerous. Pilots who participate, will take that calculated risk. It's not for every one, but nor is F1. Truth is, more dangerous it is, more people it draws.

Scott, start your planning with a local plots event and follow with a Qualifying event.
At the moment the Australian Qualifying Grand Prix is running at my Australian club. It's the second time that the AQGP has been at Lake Keepit. A Standard Class GP is being run 1 hour behind the AQGP, but is under-subscribed.
A club event run primarily to introduce LKSC members to the GP concept was enjoyed by many pilots. With some advice from experienced GP people, this type of event should be easy to get started with.
There were at least five pilots entered in the AQGP who flew in the WGC at Uvalde, but it appears not many pilots have shown up. Sorry, I don't have a link to the SPOT page yet.
Jim

http://www.keepitsoaring.com/LKSC/in...ing-grand-prix
http://www.soaringspot.com/2012gpkeepit/

That NZ GP was indeed great to watch but even better was
the Chilean world GP final which I watched in its entirety.
The tracking gave the watcher a 3D display (similar to
SeeYou) of the competitors rock polishing in the Andes +
live audio commentary overlaid. Highlights for me were
Sebastian Kawa pretty much every day and Tilo Holighaus's
amazing lead out and run on the last 2 legs of (IIRC) the
final day.

JPG

At 16:43 12 November 2012,
wrote:
Short answer is YES!!!!!

I remember watching NZ GP on a middle of the night.
Last day Uli Schwenck
g=
ot in front, but low. If he got home first he won. I was
almost ****ing my
=
pants of the excitement. Honestly it was the best
sporting event by far,
th=
at I have witnessed at home. Spectaculary produced, real
excitement.

People gotta realize that gliding is dangerous. Pilots who
participate,
wil=
l take that calculated risk. It's not for every one, but nor
is F1. Truth
i=
s, more dangerous it is, more people it draws.

On Monday, November 12, 2012 8:36:26 AM UTC-7, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Monday, November 12, 2012 7:46:26 AM UTC-7, Scott Alexander wrote:

On Nov 12, 2:51*am, gotovkotzepkoi



wrote:



I don't know whether this is the future but something needs to take



place fast that depicts gliding as exiting and cool. Otherwise this



sport is toast in the US. Look at how much publicity the World



Championship in Texas got: just about ZERO.







--



gotovkotzepkoi







Great point. Having live feed cameras, and the ability to watch the



entire race from the ground is a huge advancement in sailplane



racing. I thought that if any country in the world would do this, it



would be the good ole United States of America. Guess I was wrong!!!



Does anyone know if the WGC at Uvalde had at least a DVD made?



AFAIK there may have been a couple of independent video efforts. We'll see. Live feeds will become increasingly doable and capable. Spot tracking was okay, though some of the competitors had daily 'malfunctions'. It's suggested that Delorme inReach will improve this significantly, but expect both Spot and inReach to be used for some time. Iridium NEXT begins launching in 2015 if it stays on schedule. That could also make live tracking of distance sporting events much more common. Whether it's a paradigm shift isn't clear. Yellowbrick works great for a GP format and inReach may come close at a fraction of the cost may be good for other racing formats also.



Frank Whiteley

Frank, satellite tracking is not the only or even the best way to go. We currently have a FREE terrestrial system called APRS managed by the ARRL. For a Grand Prix race, we'd only need a "Ham" to supervise the in-glider units. They can provide real-time fixes every second or so with altitude, airspeed, rate of climb or whatever else you want. Virtually the entire US has coverage and special temporary ground station repeaters could be set up for the contest area if there are gaps in coverage. We should be doing this at every contest.

On Nov 11, 10:28*pm, "Sean F (F2)" wrote:
It should be but almost certainly will not be within the SSA.

IMO, Grand Prix glider racing is the only "true" test of competition glider pilots. *It is a pure race. *No compromise or luck involved. *Everyone flies thru the same air at the same time essentially. *No conditions improving or declining. *No picking the best time to connect the clouds ahead, etc. *No excuses. *Very much like one design sailboat racing. *In other words, A REAL RACE.

The typical US task consists of an assigned area task (aka AAT or OLC task) and the "start whenever you want" concept. *The good guys ideally start 5-15 min behind the "pack" (they refer to them as markers) with the goal of leeching back up to and thru this pack. *Pretty difficult to describe this as a "race." *More like a hunt. *It is easy to catch gliders ahead generally. *They have to find the lift. *You can fly right to it as they mark it once centered. *It is about as "un-pure" of a "race" as you can get really. *This is actually part luck, part planning and strategy and park skill. *It can only loosely be described as a race. *I think a hunt or a draft is almost a better description.

Grand Prix RACING would be alot more fun that even FAI rules (assigned tasks). *Again, the game with FAI is to start behind your competitors and leech up to them, then stay with them or pass them.

I suspect that Grand Prix would be alot safer as well. *The start would have everyone keenly aware of the proximity of the other gliders (spread laterally over a 3-5 mile start line). *The pilots ability to time themselves into the start line accurately (not to early, or late) at the maximum altitude would separate the pack naturally from the very beginning. *After that it would further string out naturally as the superior pilots pull ahead as they should. *The leaders would have earned the lead and have an opportunity to get ahead, stay ahead and have that lead "ACTUALLY MEAN SOMETHING..." *Large gaggles would be smaller to non-existent as the task progressed.

It would be very exciting to have our "race" result in the first pilot home being the winner. *How much fun would that be? *Maybe a spectator could enjoy (understand) the finish for once? *Maybe spot tracking would matter. * In fact, the "finish" of a glider race (FAI or US) more than often means absolutely nothing. *To me, without the opportunity to finishing first the experience feel less enjoyable. *We are always wondering if we managed the course well, or missed something. *Seeing another glider along the course means very little as to how well you are doing at that point. *In fact, one typically has no idea how one is doing during the AAT task up until the scorer runs his complex software which results in a score (not a time...!). *Racing is typically a time comparison, no? * We don't really have that concept in glider racing. *Its average speed...over widely random distances, paths, etc.

I am sure someone could organize a Grand Prix contest in the US. *Just may not be SSA sanctioned. *I wonder how many might want to try something like this? *Email me if you are smfidlerATgmailDOTcom.

It would be pretty easy to set this up. *And potentially alot of fun. *Handicaps would work fine as well really.

Sean

No limitation from the SSA that I have seen, the biggest limitations
are the financial issues. We have talked about it at Logan but the
numbers require a strong staff to do it to the level of NZ or Chile.
Here are the issues:
1. Small number of gliders
2. Technical support for tracking and broadcast
3. Chase aircraft to provide relay and photography.


Ideal is near a larger metropolitan area to attract local crowds and
sponsorship. Similar to the Chilean backdrop it would be fun to send
the pilots down to Salt Lake City on the Wasatch Front racing over the
cities below with a helicopter in tow.

Corporate sponsorship would be needed. This would be ideal under
something similar to the Red Bull, Xterra or Jeep racing series. Can
we get TV coverage to run a special on it like the Xterra or Jeep
series programs?

Anyone have the marketing background to sell this to a few sponsors?
Black Diamond is SLC based. who are the other "Adventure" Brands to
get support from?

Sean are you volunteering to organize an event? I can find the
location and crew to help run it.

Tim (TT)

On Monday, November 12, 2012 11:15:36 AM UTC-7, Bill D wrote:
On Monday, November 12, 2012 8:36:26 AM UTC-7, Frank Whiteley wrote:

On Monday, November 12, 2012 7:46:26 AM UTC-7, Scott Alexander wrote:



On Nov 12, 2:51*am, gotovkotzepkoi







wrote:







I don't know whether this is the future but something needs to take







place fast that depicts gliding as exiting and cool. Otherwise this







sport is toast in the US. Look at how much publicity the World







Championship in Texas got: just about ZERO.















--







gotovkotzepkoi















Great point. Having live feed cameras, and the ability to watch the







entire race from the ground is a huge advancement in sailplane







racing. I thought that if any country in the world would do this, it







would be the good ole United States of America. Guess I was wrong!!!







Does anyone know if the WGC at Uvalde had at least a DVD made?







AFAIK there may have been a couple of independent video efforts. We'll see. Live feeds will become increasingly doable and capable. Spot tracking was okay, though some of the competitors had daily 'malfunctions'. It's suggested that Delorme inReach will improve this significantly, but expect both Spot and inReach to be used for some time. Iridium NEXT begins launching in 2015 if it stays on schedule. That could also make live tracking of distance sporting events much more common. Whether it's a paradigm shift isn't clear. Yellowbrick works great for a GP format and inReach may come close at a fraction of the cost may be good for other racing formats also.







Frank Whiteley



Frank, satellite tracking is not the only or even the best way to go. We currently have a FREE terrestrial system called APRS managed by the ARRL. For a Grand Prix race, we'd only need a "Ham" to supervise the in-glider units. They can provide real-time fixes every second or so with altitude, airspeed, rate of climb or whatever else you want. Virtually the entire US has coverage and special temporary ground station repeaters could be set up for the contest area if there are gaps in coverage. We should be doing this at every contest.

Actually, better systems may be on the horizon. Wireless mesh certainly has possibilities and is in current use by military and mining. I've watched APRS tracking. Doable.

Frank

On Nov 11, 10:28*pm, "Sean F (F2)" wrote:
It should be but almost certainly will not be within the SSA.

IMO, Grand Prix glider racing is the only "true" test of competition glider pilots. *It is a pure race. *No compromise or luck involved. *Everyone flies thru the same air at the same time essentially. *No conditions improving or declining. *No picking the best time to connect the clouds ahead, etc. *No excuses. *Very much like one design sailboat racing. *In other words, A REAL RACE.

The typical US task consists of an assigned area task (aka AAT or OLC task) and the "start whenever you want" concept. *The good guys ideally start 5-15 min behind the "pack" (they refer to them as markers) with the goal of leeching back up to and thru this pack. *Pretty difficult to describe this as a "race." *More like a hunt. *It is easy to catch gliders ahead generally. *They have to find the lift. *You can fly right to it as they mark it once centered. *It is about as "un-pure" of a "race" as you can get really. *This is actually part luck, part planning and strategy and park skill. *It can only loosely be described as a race. *I think a hunt or a draft is almost a better description.

Grand Prix RACING would be alot more fun that even FAI rules (assigned tasks). *Again, the game with FAI is to start behind your competitors and leech up to them, then stay with them or pass them.

I suspect that Grand Prix would be alot safer as well. *The start would have everyone keenly aware of the proximity of the other gliders (spread laterally over a 3-5 mile start line). *The pilots ability to time themselves into the start line accurately (not to early, or late) at the maximum altitude would separate the pack naturally from the very beginning. *After that it would further string out naturally as the superior pilots pull ahead as they should. *The leaders would have earned the lead and have an opportunity to get ahead, stay ahead and have that lead "ACTUALLY MEAN SOMETHING..." *Large gaggles would be smaller to non-existent as the task progressed.

It would be very exciting to have our "race" result in the first pilot home being the winner. *How much fun would that be? *Maybe a spectator could enjoy (understand) the finish for once? *Maybe spot tracking would matter. * In fact, the "finish" of a glider race (FAI or US) more than often means absolutely nothing. *To me, without the opportunity to finishing first the experience feel less enjoyable. *We are always wondering if we managed the course well, or missed something. *Seeing another glider along the course means very little as to how well you are doing at that point. *In fact, one typically has no idea how one is doing during the AAT task up until the scorer runs his complex software which results in a score (not a time...!). *Racing is typically a time comparison, no? * We don't really have that concept in glider racing. *Its average speed...over widely random distances, paths, etc.

I am sure someone could organize a Grand Prix contest in the US. *Just may not be SSA sanctioned. *I wonder how many might want to try something like this? *Email me if you are smfidlerATgmailDOTcom.

It would be pretty easy to set this up. *And potentially alot of fun. *Handicaps would work fine as well really.

Sean

The Arizona Soaring Association ran GP races a couple of years, but
early in the spring. Even though conditions weren't great yet, the
contests were FUN! SPOT could be watched by spectators, family,
friends at the airport.

Bob

On Sunday, November 11, 2012 11:12:31 PM UTC-5, Scott Alexander wrote:
Will this catch on in the USA? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pc_aU...e_gdata_player

I heard that they ran a race like this at the Soaring Club of Houston a couple weeks ago.
They cleverly adjusted for differing gliders by adjsuting the turn radii so each flew a distance appropriate for the handicap of his glider.
Interesting concept for a fun weekend race.
UH