New Class for US Nationals

On Monday, November 12, 2012 5:14:37 PM UTC-5, Kevin Christner wrote:
Tim, Thanks for your thoughts. Am I the only one confused about why a higher performance LS-6 would be allowed in the "Club" class while the theoretically lower performance LS-8 is not? 2C

Read again the text of the description and note that it describes a handicap range.
All sailplanes withing that range would be permitted to fly in Club class. This includes the LS-8.
Yes it appears you are confused, but not sure where confusion came from.
Cheers
UH

On Nov 12, 6:07*pm, wrote:
On Monday, November 12, 2012 5:14:37 PM UTC-5, Kevin Christner wrote:
Tim, Thanks for your thoughts. Am I the only one confused about why a higher performance LS-6 would be allowed in the "Club" class while the theoretically lower performance LS-8 is not? 2C

Read again the text of the description and note that it describes a handicap range.
All sailplanes withing that range would be permitted to fly in Club class.. This includes the LS-8.
Yes it appears you are confused, but not sure where confusion came from.
Cheers
UH

To clarify, the "club" class competition will include all sailplanes
below 0.899 (Ls6 / ventus abc) on the US handicap list. (Subject to
SSA BOD approval) as Hank said. This includes LS8/D2, V1 and all
ASW20s. It also extends arbitrarily to lower performance, so a KA6 is
welcome to come fly the "club" class.

The US team is still deciding what to do about team selection, which
is a separate issue. For the moment, they have made no change to the
rule that sailplanes must be on the US team club class list to qualify
for team selection points. This includes V1 and all ASW20s, but not
LS8/D2. It also has a lower limit, the KA6 is not on it. (see ssa,
racing, other resources, handicaps. Look for the "C" for club).The
team will announce a formal decision on this issue when they have made
it. Until they announce a change, the current rules are in effect, see
the ssa list.

The IGC maintains a separate list of what "club" means. This changes
from championship to championship. The current version does not
include the V1 or ASW20 b and c. This list has no bearing on US
contests at the moment.

In sum, there may be three definitions of "club" to watch: 1) who is
allowed to fly in the "club" portion of US sports/club class nationals
2) what gliders, flying in that contest, earn US team points 3) the
IGC "club" list for the upcoming world championships. They are all
different!

John Cochrane

On Monday, November 12, 2012 8:40:16 PM UTC-5, John Cochrane wrote:
On Nov 12, 6:07*pm, wrote:

On Monday, November 12, 2012 5:14:37 PM UTC-5, Kevin Christner wrote:

Tim, Thanks for your thoughts. Am I the only one confused about why a higher performance LS-6 would be allowed in the "Club" class while the theoretically lower performance LS-8 is not? 2C



Read again the text of the description and note that it describes a handicap range.

All sailplanes withing that range would be permitted to fly in Club class. This includes the LS-8.

Yes it appears you are confused, but not sure where confusion came from..

Cheers

UH



To clarify, the "club" class competition will include all sailplanes

below 0.899 (Ls6 / ventus abc) on the US handicap list. (Subject to

SSA BOD approval) as Hank said. This includes LS8/D2, V1 and all

ASW20s. It also extends arbitrarily to lower performance, so a KA6 is

welcome to come fly the "club" class.



The US team is still deciding what to do about team selection, which

is a separate issue. For the moment, they have made no change to the

rule that sailplanes must be on the US team club class list to qualify

for team selection points. This includes V1 and all ASW20s, but not

LS8/D2. It also has a lower limit, the KA6 is not on it. (see ssa,

racing, other resources, handicaps. Look for the "C" for club).The

team will announce a formal decision on this issue when they have made

it. Until they announce a change, the current rules are in effect, see

the ssa list.



The IGC maintains a separate list of what "club" means. This changes

from championship to championship. The current version does not

include the V1 or ASW20 b and c. This list has no bearing on US

contests at the moment.



In sum, there may be three definitions of "club" to watch: 1) who is

allowed to fly in the "club" portion of US sports/club class nationals

2) what gliders, flying in that contest, earn US team points 3) the

IGC "club" list for the upcoming world championships. They are all

different!



John Cochrane

I have been reading with interest the discussion concerning the club class.
I have no "vested" interest in the club class just "great" interest.

I don't understand allowing gliders to be a part of the club class in this country that are not allowed by the IGC. The V1 and the LS-6 seem to be the big question. The notion that the V1 and the LS-6 are of the same vintage as the early ASW-20 is just not so. I was lucky enough to be around when the first ASW-20 came into this country. It was accompanied by the mini nimbus, PIK and mosquito and later the LS-3. Only after several refinements of the ASW-20 did the V1 and LS-6 appear on the scene.

GUTTING the sports class and spreading the handicaps to extreme seems to be of concern. Doesn't leaving the V1 and the LS-6 in sports class help with both problems.

Participation seems to be a factor in the RC decisions. I personally think that if the RC would listen to the pilots who have interest in the club class rather than dictating to them you may find that interest will grow. Do you really expect pilots to be enthusiastic and jump in with both feet when their thoughts and ideas are continuously falling on deaf ears.

Rules Committee. Listen to the movers and shakers of the club class in the country. They have have been bold enough to step up and purchase a club glider and are ready to move forward. There are some really smart people in this group who have put a great deal of time and effort into this movement just as you have.

Club Class glider pilots. If you don't feel that you are being properly represented on the rules committee be willing to step up and run for a seat on the committee. If you feel that the rules committee need new members and a new way of thinking put you name on the ballot. 5U

At 15:44 13 November 2012, 5 ugly wrote:
On Monday, November 12, 2012 8:40:16 PM UTC-5, John Cochrane wrote:
On Nov 12, 6:07=A0pm, wrote:
=20
On Monday, November 12, 2012 5:14:37 PM UTC-5, Kevin Christner wrote:
=20
Tim, Thanks for your thoughts. Am I the only one confused about why
a=
higher performance LS-6 would be allowed in the "Club" class while the
the=
oretically lower performance LS-8 is not? 2C
=20

=20
Read again the text of the description and note that it describes a
han=
dicap range.
=20
All sailplanes withing that range would be permitted to fly in Club
cla=
ss. This includes the LS-8.
=20
Yes it appears you are confused, but not sure where confusion came
from=
..
=20
Cheers
=20
UH
=20
=20
=20
To clarify, the "club" class competition will include all sailplanes
=20
below 0.899 (Ls6 / ventus abc) on the US handicap list. (Subject to
=20
SSA BOD approval) as Hank said. This includes LS8/D2, V1 and all
=20
ASW20s. It also extends arbitrarily to lower performance, so a KA6 is
=20
welcome to come fly the "club" class.
=20
=20
=20
The US team is still deciding what to do about team selection, which
=20
is a separate issue. For the moment, they have made no change to the
=20
rule that sailplanes must be on the US team club class list to qualify
=20
for team selection points. This includes V1 and all ASW20s, but not
=20
LS8/D2. It also has a lower limit, the KA6 is not on it. (see ssa,
=20
racing, other resources, handicaps. Look for the "C" for club).The
=20
team will announce a formal decision on this issue when they have made
=20
it. Until they announce a change, the current rules are in effect, see
=20
the ssa list.
=20
=20
=20
The IGC maintains a separate list of what "club" means. This changes
=20
from championship to championship. The current version does not
=20
include the V1 or ASW20 b and c. This list has no bearing on US
=20
contests at the moment.
=20
=20
=20
In sum, there may be three definitions of "club" to watch: 1) who is
=20
allowed to fly in the "club" portion of US sports/club class nationals
=20
2) what gliders, flying in that contest, earn US team points 3) the
=20
IGC "club" list for the upcoming world championships. They are all
=20
different!
=20
=20
=20
John Cochrane

I have been reading with interest the discussion concerning the club
class.=
=20
I have no "vested" interest in the club class just "great" interest.

I don't understand allowing gliders to be a part of the club class in
this
=
country that are not allowed by the IGC. The V1 and the LS-6 seem to be
the=
big question. The notion that the V1 and the LS-6 are of the same
vintage
=
as the early ASW-20 is just not so. I was lucky enough to be around when
th=
e first ASW-20 came into this country. It was accompanied by the mini
nimbu=
s, PIK and mosquito and later the LS-3. Only after several refinements of
t=
he ASW-20 did the V1 and LS-6 appear on the scene.=20

GUTTING the sports class and spreading the handicaps to extreme seems to
be=
of concern. Doesn't leaving the V1 and the LS-6 in sports class help
with
=
both problems.=20

Participation seems to be a factor in the RC decisions. I personally
think
=
that if the RC would listen to the pilots who have interest in the club
cla=
ss rather than dictating to them you may find that interest will grow. Do
y=
ou really expect pilots to be enthusiastic and jump in with both feet
when
=
their thoughts and ideas are continuously falling on deaf ears.

Rules Committee. Listen to the movers and shakers of the club class in
the
=
country. They have have been bold enough to step up and purchase a club
gli=
der and are ready to move forward. There are some really smart people in
th=
is group who have put a great deal of time and effort into this movement
ju=
st as you have.

Club Class glider pilots. If you don't feel that you are being properly
rep=
resented on the rules committee be willing to step up and run for a seat
on=
the committee. If you feel that the rules committee need new members and
a=
new way of thinking put you name on the ballot. 5U


Here here - there is a definition of IGC club class- IT IS AN FAI/IGC
CLASS. why does the USA have to different to the rest of the world?, in
just this one competition class? What's the reasoning? or are you going to
find a way for 301 Libelles to be competetive in 15m or a Diamant 18 to be
competitive in 18m or an old Skylark 4 to be competetive in Open?

Contary to Johns's statement the 'club class' has been pretty well defined
for a number of years now - it DOES NOT change every championship.

Try running a proper IGC defined club class - as a separte comp to sports
class or 2 sports classes - high and low handicaps (could be same
venue/time though) see how it goes -i f insufficent takers then rethink -
instead of creating the basterdised child you are now attempting to create
in a misguided attempt to please everyone. or V1/LS6 drivers -who if
successful would have to change planes to compete at World level anyway.

"The IGC maintains a separate list of what "club" means. This changes
from championship to championship. The current version does not
include the V1 or ASW20 b and c. This list has no bearing on US
contests at the moment."

ASW 20 15m are IGC "Club", even b and c.

Sean Franke
HA

On Nov 13, 4:02*pm, wrote:
ASW 20 15m are IGC "Club", even b and c.

I'm looking at the October 1st, 2012 OGC Club Class list:

1,08 ASW 20 (15m) (not B,C)

No other entries for ASW 20...

Marc

Wow, who would have thought that LS6s and V1s would become the ugly ducklings of the glider racing community!

If I race in 15M, I go head to head against ASG-29s, ASW-27s, V2s, Dianas. Sure, it's fun and builds character, and I'll do it again in a heartbeat, but is it serious? Not really, it's just fun racing - and I've got a good whine already prepared for when I don't win every day ("wow, it's tough without winglets and disk brakes!").

Sports? Really? No ASTs? No thanks. When I go to a race I like to actually race, not just fly around the countryside with a variety of gliders in a variety of directions. That's a fun meet, not a contest. Fun, but not the same.

I like the format of classic and modern club class, with the split around the ASW-19 or 20 range. I want faster gliders in my class - let them go ahead and mark thermals, and I can tag along and nip them on the finish line (well, in my dreams, at least). Being the fast ship in a handicap class is not really a benefit - think about it and do the math!

You club class elitists who are all bent about including LS6s and V1s are being shortsighted - but hey - it's cool, right? Because Club Class is cool. And your gliders are cool, so make sure the rules are cool too...

What a joke.

Kirk
66

On Nov 13, 6:02*pm, wrote:
"The IGC maintains a separate list of what "club" means. This changes
from championship to championship. The current version does not
include the V1 or ASW20 b and c. This list has no bearing on US
contests at the moment."

ASW 20 15m are IGC "Club", even b and c.

Sean Franke
HA

The link is here
http://www.fai.org/igc-our-sport/handicaps
and here
http://www.fai.org/downloads/igc/IGC...ubClassList_V1
or just google "IGC club class list"

This is for Argentina. The ASW20 BC are specifically excluded. I
cannot find a handicap list for Finland 2014.

John Cochrane

Good bless you RC...what a cowpile responsibility. Your dedication is deep and thank you for your service.

Your proposal may be the best way to go. Who can say for sure? But after all this discussion, it's still not clear to me why the US should go outside the existing FAI rules.

As a Club Class competitor, I'd really be chapped to know the pilot who beat me and made the World Team was flying a sailplane not qualified to fly in the Worlds.

SSA, please give this a good hard look.

Ben

On Tuesday, November 13, 2012 11:26:58 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Good bless you RC...what a cowpile responsibility. Your dedication is deep and thank you for your service. Your proposal may be the best way to go. Who can say for sure? But after all this discussion, it's still not clear to me why the US should go outside the existing FAI rules. As a Club Class competitor, I'd really be chapped to know the pilot who beat me and made the World Team was flying a sailplane not qualified to fly in the Worlds. SSA, please give this a good hard look. Ben

National competition and team selection do not have to be perfectly aligned..
We have been selecting the members of the US team from those pilots flying in the Sports class that were flying gliders on a list that very closely emulates the list used at recent WGC events.
The USTC is considering what to do in light of ihe introduction of Club. One option is to continue the existing team selection policy. Another is to expand the list in various ways. Personally, I think retaining the limitation that has been in place since 2006 is the thing to do. I speak only as a participant.
With respect to the US national class, it is worth noting that many other countries do not use the IGC list literally, but adjust the list to suit their situation. We are doing the same thing.
A very short and simple study of what gliders flew in US contests in 2012 indicated that by defining the Club class list as the RC has proposed, the population of gliders possibly participating is increased by something around 60%. This would bode well for the possibility of establishing a class with a solid participation base.
Some in the higher performance range may also stay is Sports. We'll see.
This has gotten a lot of thought over quite a number of years.
Cheers
UH