Personal flight computers

Hi Gang
There appears to be several very bright PNAs available on the market including the Vertica 2 and the Oudie and several software packages including SeeYou, XCSoar and LK8000 (is GN11 and any of the other older systems still supported?).
I recently purchased A Vertica and down loaded the LK8000 software. I am pleased with the performance of the system with the display so much brighter than my old system using a HP PDA. That said and done have any of you done a recent comparison of the various systems and if so is there a strong winner or are they mostly similar.
Dave

On Dec 7, 12:51*pm, kd6veb wrote:
Hi Gang
* There appears to be several very bright PNAs available on the market including the Vertica 2 and the Oudie and several software packages including SeeYou, XCSoar and LK8000 (is GN11 and any of the other older systems still supported?).
* I recently purchased A Vertica and down loaded the LK8000 software. I am pleased with the performance of the system with the display so much brighter than my old system using a HP PDA. That said and done have any of you done a recent comparison of the various systems and if so is there a strong winner or are they mostly similar.
Dave

I'd like to know how the Vertica 2 compares to the Oudie 2 or Oudie 2
Lite. My understanding is that they are similar. Can anyone offer a
comparison of the two in use? Do they have the same GPS engine?

Thanks!

WD

On Friday, December 7, 2012 6:09:22 PM UTC, Whiskey Delta wrote:
On Dec 7, 12:51*pm, kd6veb wrote:

Hi Gang

* There appears to be several very bright PNAs available on the market including the Vertica 2 and the Oudie and several software packages including SeeYou, XCSoar and LK8000 (is GN11 and any of the other older systems still supported?).

* I recently purchased A Vertica and down loaded the LK8000 software. I am pleased with the performance of the system with the display so much brighter than my old system using a HP PDA. That said and done have any of you done a recent comparison of the various systems and if so is there a strong winner or are they mostly similar.

Dave



I'd like to know how the Vertica 2 compares to the Oudie 2 or Oudie 2

Lite. My understanding is that they are similar. Can anyone offer a

comparison of the two in use? Do they have the same GPS engine?



Thanks!



WD

I have an Oudie and a GliderGuider.

Different GPS engine. The Oudie GPS engine has a 'track smoothing' issue which means that it is not accurate when circling - and therefore the wind calculation and other calculations which flow from it may not be accurate.

The Vertica 2 and other similar devices (GliderGuider and others are probably identical) use a GPS engine which is more accurate in flight - but which probably uses more battery power and which takes longer to lock on to satellites.

The Oudie has much more internal memory which means that it can run a worldwide terrain map from internal memory, whereas the GliderGuider cannot cope with the worldwide map, and the Oudie handles some tasks rather faster.

The Oudie comes with a much wider range of interfaces.

If you intended to use the device mainly or only using an external GPS engine the Oudie would probably be the unit to choose. I want the device to give a good result without any external connections (other than to a batery) when flying a club glider. I am using the GliderGuider running SeeYou Mobile and think that is an outstanding system for the purpose.

I had a good look at LK8000 to see how it compared to SYM. I found several features in LK8000 which were not present in SYM but none of them were significant to me, and I thought SYM made it easier to do the things which I do often. I accept that this may be due to my greater familiarity with SYM. I also appreciate the very good support which SYM has from the Naviter folk. I think the biggest difference is made by your software setup, and by the setup of your database files. Unless you are a serious boffin, I would choose a software program which is in use by pilots in your club who are good at the setup.

LK8000 is my favorite software bar none. The support is phenomenal with daily forum chat by the developer. Check out postfrontal.com This hosts lk8000 forum where you can find thread comparing all available displays in photos. I use mio 400. For less than $50 I have top of lone pna.

XF

I'm an IT professional and a glider pilot, and here are my thoughts
after a lot of testing and experiementation over the last 5 years:

I've got a Vertica V1 and intend to get a V2 shortly. I prefer it
over several other PDA/PNA devices i've owned and tried, including:
the original Oudie, iPAX hx4700, HP 310, Mio Moov Spirit, and a couple
of chinese PNAs I've bought over the years to test. The V1 has the
"Oudie-like" GPS chip which does smoothing, therefore it is not very
accurate during circling. The V2 fixes that problem.

For my V1, I pipe in data from my logger to my gliding program over
the USB port (so I see EXACTLY what my logger is seeing, in terms of
altitudes and distances to waypoints) - so the V1 GPS "problem"
doesn't affect me in the slightest. I use the V1 GPS as a backup/
secondary input into my gliding program - its there only to help me if
my logger dies during a flight.

For _all_ of the newer PDA/PNA devices, you pay a price for the screen
brightness: battery-life. Displays are far and away the most power-
hungry parts of all modern computing devices, and PNAs are no
exception. Almost no device out there will give you more than about 2
hours of flying time, if you're using the GPS receiver and displaying
the screen at any usable level of brightness. So its mandatory to
plumb into ship's power or buy an external battery and use the USB
port to provide supplemental power.

I've also been a longtime user of LK8000 (and I used to fly with
XCSoar back before LK8000 was available).

The Naviter/SeeYou folks are nice; but with all the free software
options out there that are excellent (such as LK8000), I don't see the
need to pay extra amounts of money for SeeYou software or their Oudie-
branded hardware.

All of the top software programs perform almost all of the same
functions nowadays. For normal pilots making normal cross-country or
competition flights, any of the major software options will work fine
(LK8000, XCSoar, SeeYouMobile, ClearNav, LX, etc). They may have
slightly different menus and iconography, but in the end the
differences are styling, not function. As I said, my personal
preference is LK8000 - its got a few extra menus and bits to set up
initially; but I find it is responsive in-flight and the displays are
very customizable so I can group information together in ways that
make sense for me. LK8000 also lets me easily turn OFF features and
information I don't care about; which is nice. I think these programs
can give you way too MUCH info, and it takes precious extra seconds
for your eyes and brain to read and filter the info on the screen, to
figure out just what's important at the moment.

--Noel

On Dec 9, 1:53*am, "noel.wade" wrote:

(LK8000, XCSoar, SeeYouMobile, ClearNav, LX, etc). *They may have
slightly different menus and iconography, but in the end the
differences are styling, not function.

I disagree with that statement. They have conceptual similarities, of
course. However, I have found some significant differences in
functionality (usability) in the cockpit. This is at least as much
about hardware as software. How many of these setups will preserve
your task, start time, stats and flight log through an unintended
power cycle (battery died, circuit breaker popped, "co-pilot" hit the
switch) or even a system lock up? As well, information entry
requirements vary enormously. What looks great at the kitchen table
sometimes doesn't work so hot in the cockpit (been through that).

*I think these programs
can give you way too MUCH info, and it takes precious extra seconds
for your eyes and brain to read and filter the info on the screen, to
figure out just what's important at the moment.

Ohhhhhh yes. An essential feature is being able to turn all the
distraction off. Unfortunately, the great temptation is to leave too
much of it on, on the theory that it might be useful (been through
that, too).

-Evan Ludeman / T8

On Sunday, December 9, 2012 1:53:18 AM UTC-5, noel.wade wrote:
I'm an IT professional and a glider pilot, and here are my thoughts

after a lot of testing and experiementation over the last 5 years:



I've got a Vertica V1 and intend to get a V2 shortly. I prefer it

over several other PDA/PNA devices i've owned and tried, including:

the original Oudie, iPAX hx4700, HP 310, Mio Moov Spirit, and a couple

of chinese PNAs I've bought over the years to test. The V1 has the

"Oudie-like" GPS chip which does smoothing, therefore it is not very

accurate during circling. The V2 fixes that problem.



For my V1, I pipe in data from my logger to my gliding program over

the USB port (so I see EXACTLY what my logger is seeing, in terms of

altitudes and distances to waypoints) - so the V1 GPS "problem"

doesn't affect me in the slightest. I use the V1 GPS as a backup/

secondary input into my gliding program - its there only to help me if

my logger dies during a flight.



For _all_ of the newer PDA/PNA devices, you pay a price for the screen

brightness: battery-life. Displays are far and away the most power-

hungry parts of all modern computing devices, and PNAs are no

exception. Almost no device out there will give you more than about 2

hours of flying time, if you're using the GPS receiver and displaying

the screen at any usable level of brightness. So its mandatory to

plumb into ship's power or buy an external battery and use the USB

port to provide supplemental power.



I've also been a longtime user of LK8000 (and I used to fly with

XCSoar back before LK8000 was available).



The Naviter/SeeYou folks are nice; but with all the free software

options out there that are excellent (such as LK8000), I don't see the

need to pay extra amounts of money for SeeYou software or their Oudie-

branded hardware.



All of the top software programs perform almost all of the same

functions nowadays. For normal pilots making normal cross-country or

competition flights, any of the major software options will work fine

(LK8000, XCSoar, SeeYouMobile, ClearNav, LX, etc). They may have

slightly different menus and iconography, but in the end the

differences are styling, not function. As I said, my personal

preference is LK8000 - its got a few extra menus and bits to set up

initially; but I find it is responsive in-flight and the displays are

very customizable so I can group information together in ways that

make sense for me. LK8000 also lets me easily turn OFF features and

information I don't care about; which is nice. I think these programs

can give you way too MUCH info, and it takes precious extra seconds

for your eyes and brain to read and filter the info on the screen, to

figure out just what's important at the moment.



--Noel

I can't agree that they are all the same. Have you really tried them all?

"(LK8000, XCSoar, SeeYouMobile, ClearNav, LX, etc). They may have
slightly different menus and iconography, but in the end the
differences are styling, not function."

I can't speak to the others but I find XC-Soar far less user freindly that CN or even GNII. Admittedly, XC-Soar is extremely flexible and jam-packed with techie goodies but misses the point for cockpit usability (making it useless IMO).

-Jim

All good points except there's no mention of transflective display
technology which uses less power in bright ambient light (in the cockpit).
My Streak lasts for well over 4 hours on a sunny day at full brightness. I
have it plumbed into ship's power (with a fuse and a toggle switch) for
those extra long soaring days.

It also takes HD pictures and video and can be used as a tablet and cell
phone if desired (I don't), a music player (too distracting in flight), etc.
The purpose-built devices can't perform any of those functions, to my
knowledge, and cost a bunch more.

I agree fully with your assessment of the available software.


"noel.wade" wrote in message
...
I'm an IT professional and a glider pilot, and here are my thoughts
after a lot of testing and experiementation over the last 5 years:

I've got a Vertica V1 and intend to get a V2 shortly. I prefer it
over several other PDA/PNA devices i've owned and tried, including:
the original Oudie, iPAX hx4700, HP 310, Mio Moov Spirit, and a couple
of chinese PNAs I've bought over the years to test. The V1 has the
"Oudie-like" GPS chip which does smoothing, therefore it is not very
accurate during circling. The V2 fixes that problem.

For my V1, I pipe in data from my logger to my gliding program over
the USB port (so I see EXACTLY what my logger is seeing, in terms of
altitudes and distances to waypoints) - so the V1 GPS "problem"
doesn't affect me in the slightest. I use the V1 GPS as a backup/
secondary input into my gliding program - its there only to help me if
my logger dies during a flight.

For _all_ of the newer PDA/PNA devices, you pay a price for the screen
brightness: battery-life. Displays are far and away the most power-
hungry parts of all modern computing devices, and PNAs are no
exception. Almost no device out there will give you more than about 2
hours of flying time, if you're using the GPS receiver and displaying
the screen at any usable level of brightness. So its mandatory to
plumb into ship's power or buy an external battery and use the USB
port to provide supplemental power.

I've also been a longtime user of LK8000 (and I used to fly with
XCSoar back before LK8000 was available).

The Naviter/SeeYou folks are nice; but with all the free software
options out there that are excellent (such as LK8000), I don't see the
need to pay extra amounts of money for SeeYou software or their Oudie-
branded hardware.

All of the top software programs perform almost all of the same
functions nowadays. For normal pilots making normal cross-country or
competition flights, any of the major software options will work fine
(LK8000, XCSoar, SeeYouMobile, ClearNav, LX, etc). They may have
slightly different menus and iconography, but in the end the
differences are styling, not function. As I said, my personal
preference is LK8000 - its got a few extra menus and bits to set up
initially; but I find it is responsive in-flight and the displays are
very customizable so I can group information together in ways that
make sense for me. LK8000 also lets me easily turn OFF features and
information I don't care about; which is nice. I think these programs
can give you way too MUCH info, and it takes precious extra seconds
for your eyes and brain to read and filter the info on the screen, to
figure out just what's important at the moment.

--Noel

Admittedly, XC-Soar is extremely flexible and jam-packed with techie goodies but misses the point for cockpit usability (making it useless IMO).

Having never used any software in flight, I am curious about this remark.
I'm wondering if you can elaborate a bit on what you think what the point for cockpit usability roughly is?

Roel

"Evan Ludeman" wrote in message
...
On Dec 9, 1:53 am, "noel.wade" wrote:

snip

Ohhhhhh yes. An essential feature is being able to turn all the
distraction off. Unfortunately, the great temptation is to leave too
much of it on, on the theory that it might be useful (been through
that, too).

-Evan Ludeman / T8

How true! I thought the moving map was great until I realized that the
contrast is so much better with the terrain display turned off. Besides,
what I see outside the window looks so much more realistic!