Spin training for US pilots?

I did spin training in CA shortly after recieving my glider license. It has been very helpful for me as I have continued along with glider flight.

How many of you, US pilots, have had formal spin instruction (not one spin but half a day or more)?

Personally I am amazed that a US glider pilot can get their license without ever spinning in a glider. As I understand it, absolutely ZERO spins are required to complete you training and receive both your private or commercial rating.

That said, this great video (British I believe) was very similar to the spin instruction I received. I hope it is helpful to any pilots who have not yet had extensive spin/spin recovery training.

http://youtu.be/p8_mJmR2qlw

Just do this! It could save a life!

Sean
F2

On Sunday, June 2, 2013 7:53:11 AM UTC-7, Sean F (F2) wrote:
I did spin training in CA shortly after recieving my glider license. It has been very helpful for me as I have continued along with glider flight.



How many of you, US pilots, have had formal spin instruction (not one spin but half a day or more)?



Personally I am amazed that a US glider pilot can get their license without ever spinning in a glider. As I understand it, absolutely ZERO spins are required to complete you training and receive both your private or commercial rating.



That said, this great video (British I believe) was very similar to the spin instruction I received. I hope it is helpful to any pilots who have not yet had extensive spin/spin recovery training.



http://youtu.be/p8_mJmR2qlw



Just do this! It could save a life!



Sean

F2

I did spin training before I got my private. Age 14, flying a 2-32. That thing spins really well!

I try a few spin departures every couple of flights. And certainly on the first flight in a new glider (altitude permitting or course). How else do you know what they feel like? Better to find out at 3000 AGL than 300....

On Sunday, June 2, 2013 8:53:11 AM UTC-6, Sean F (F2) wrote:
I did spin training in CA shortly after recieving my glider license. It has been very helpful for me as I have continued along with glider flight.



How many of you, US pilots, have had formal spin instruction (not one spin but half a day or more)?



Personally I am amazed that a US glider pilot can get their license without ever spinning in a glider. As I understand it, absolutely ZERO spins are required to complete you training and receive both your private or commercial rating.



That said, this great video (British I believe) was very similar to the spin instruction I received. I hope it is helpful to any pilots who have not yet had extensive spin/spin recovery training.



http://youtu.be/p8_mJmR2qlw



Just do this! It could save a life!



Sean

F2

I think only a fool would argue spin training isn't a good idea. Whether it is "necessary" is a slightly different issue.

A view in the US is risks associated with spin training are about the same as the risks avoided so there is little to be gained one way or the other. Another is teaching stall/spin avoidance is more important and, as a practical matter, more useful than teaching spin recovery. That's why Part 61 doesn't require them except for flight instructors.

In support of that view, most German gliders built in the last 25 years are quite spin resistant - so much so it is difficult to get them to spin unless the CG is quite far aft. Probably this is why accident reports show a declining number of spin accidents (We've just figured out other ways to kill ourselves.)

The exception is many gliders from Eastern Europe which tend to be more "spinnable". I wouldn't suggest anyone fly these gliders without complete spin training.

I can't leave this subject without mentioning something I've noticed reading accident report narratives. Witness descriptions of "spin-in's" seem to leave open the possibility what they really saw was a spiral dive that developed from an incipient spin. The typical wording used by witnesses was something like, "The glider entered a diving turn which continued to impact." That's not how I would describe a spin but possibly what a spiral dive would look like. The unfortunate pilot seems to have inappropriately applied anti-spin controls when he could have survived if spiral dive recovery technique had been used.

The takehome for me is to make absolutely sure students know the difference between spins and spiral dives and how to recover from each.

On Sunday, June 2, 2013 10:53:11 AM UTC-4, Sean F (F2) wrote:
I did spin training in CA shortly after recieving my glider license. It has been very helpful for me as I have continued along with glider flight. How many of you, US pilots, have had formal spin instruction (not one spin but half a day or more)? Personally I am amazed that a US glider pilot can get their license without ever spinning in a glider. As I understand it, absolutely ZERO spins are required to complete you training and receive both your private or commercial rating. That said, this great video (British I believe) was very similar to the spin instruction I received. I hope it is helpful to any pilots who have not yet had extensive spin/spin recovery training. http://youtu.be/p8_mJmR2qlw Just do this! It could save a life! Sean F2

Required prior to solo at our operation.
UH

Personally I am amazed that a US glider pilot can get their license without ever spinning in a glider.

Even more amazing: It is possible to become an airline captain without
ever having had an airplane upside down...

On Sunday, June 2, 2013 9:20:45 AM UTC-7, Bill D wrote:
On Sunday, June 2, 2013 8:53:11 AM UTC-6, Sean F (F2) wrote:

I did spin training in CA shortly after recieving my glider license. It has been very helpful for me as I have continued along with glider flight..







How many of you, US pilots, have had formal spin instruction (not one spin but half a day or more)?







Personally I am amazed that a US glider pilot can get their license without ever spinning in a glider. As I understand it, absolutely ZERO spins are required to complete you training and receive both your private or commercial rating.







That said, this great video (British I believe) was very similar to the spin instruction I received. I hope it is helpful to any pilots who have not yet had extensive spin/spin recovery training.







http://youtu.be/p8_mJmR2qlw







Just do this! It could save a life!







Sean



F2



I think only a fool would argue spin training isn't a good idea. Whether it is "necessary" is a slightly different issue.



A view in the US is risks associated with spin training are about the same as the risks avoided so there is little to be gained one way or the other.. Another is teaching stall/spin avoidance is more important and, as a practical matter, more useful than teaching spin recovery. That's why Part 61 doesn't require them except for flight instructors.



In support of that view, most German gliders built in the last 25 years are quite spin resistant - so much so it is difficult to get them to spin unless the CG is quite far aft. Probably this is why accident reports show a declining number of spin accidents (We've just figured out other ways to kill ourselves.)



The exception is many gliders from Eastern Europe which tend to be more "spinnable". I wouldn't suggest anyone fly these gliders without complete spin training.



I can't leave this subject without mentioning something I've noticed reading accident report narratives. Witness descriptions of "spin-in's" seem to leave open the possibility what they really saw was a spiral dive that developed from an incipient spin. The typical wording used by witnesses was something like, "The glider entered a diving turn which continued to impact.." That's not how I would describe a spin but possibly what a spiral dive would look like. The unfortunate pilot seems to have inappropriately applied anti-spin controls when he could have survived if spiral dive recovery technique had been used.



The takehome for me is to make absolutely sure students know the difference between spins and spiral dives and how to recover from each.

I can't agree with the idea that German gliders don't spin. At least the ones I am most familiar with (ash26e, duo discus, ask21) will spin. At least you will get a nice spin departure, maybe it turns into a spiral dive quickly but on the turn to final that is only of academic interest.

If you are a serious glider pilot, why would you NOT want the training? If it is too scary then you certainly shouldn't be flying where I fly....

On Sunday, June 2, 2013 6:22:48 PM UTC-6, jfitch wrote:
On Sunday, June 2, 2013 9:20:45 AM UTC-7, Bill D wrote:

On Sunday, June 2, 2013 8:53:11 AM UTC-6, Sean F (F2) wrote:



I did spin training in CA shortly after recieving my glider license. It has been very helpful for me as I have continued along with glider flight.















How many of you, US pilots, have had formal spin instruction (not one spin but half a day or more)?















Personally I am amazed that a US glider pilot can get their license without ever spinning in a glider. As I understand it, absolutely ZERO spins are required to complete you training and receive both your private or commercial rating.















That said, this great video (British I believe) was very similar to the spin instruction I received. I hope it is helpful to any pilots who have not yet had extensive spin/spin recovery training.















http://youtu.be/p8_mJmR2qlw















Just do this! It could save a life!















Sean







F2







I think only a fool would argue spin training isn't a good idea. Whether it is "necessary" is a slightly different issue.







A view in the US is risks associated with spin training are about the same as the risks avoided so there is little to be gained one way or the other. Another is teaching stall/spin avoidance is more important and, as a practical matter, more useful than teaching spin recovery. That's why Part 61 doesn't require them except for flight instructors.







In support of that view, most German gliders built in the last 25 years are quite spin resistant - so much so it is difficult to get them to spin unless the CG is quite far aft. Probably this is why accident reports show a declining number of spin accidents (We've just figured out other ways to kill ourselves.)







The exception is many gliders from Eastern Europe which tend to be more "spinnable". I wouldn't suggest anyone fly these gliders without complete spin training.







I can't leave this subject without mentioning something I've noticed reading accident report narratives. Witness descriptions of "spin-in's" seem to leave open the possibility what they really saw was a spiral dive that developed from an incipient spin. The typical wording used by witnesses was something like, "The glider entered a diving turn which continued to impact." That's not how I would describe a spin but possibly what a spiral dive would look like. The unfortunate pilot seems to have inappropriately applied anti-spin controls when he could have survived if spiral dive recovery technique had been used.







The takehome for me is to make absolutely sure students know the difference between spins and spiral dives and how to recover from each.



I can't agree with the idea that German gliders don't spin. At least the ones I am most familiar with (ash26e, duo discus, ask21) will spin. At least you will get a nice spin departure, maybe it turns into a spiral dive quickly but on the turn to final that is only of academic interest.



If you are a serious glider pilot, why would you NOT want the training? If it is too scary then you certainly shouldn't be flying where I fly....

I said "spin resistant" not that they wouldn't spin.

On Sunday, June 2, 2013 6:04:58 PM UTC-7, Bill D wrote:
On Sunday, June 2, 2013 6:22:48 PM UTC-6, jfitch wrote:

On Sunday, June 2, 2013 9:20:45 AM UTC-7, Bill D wrote:



On Sunday, June 2, 2013 8:53:11 AM UTC-6, Sean F (F2) wrote:







I did spin training in CA shortly after recieving my glider license.. It has been very helpful for me as I have continued along with glider flight.































How many of you, US pilots, have had formal spin instruction (not one spin but half a day or more)?































Personally I am amazed that a US glider pilot can get their license without ever spinning in a glider. As I understand it, absolutely ZERO spins are required to complete you training and receive both your private or commercial rating.































That said, this great video (British I believe) was very similar to the spin instruction I received. I hope it is helpful to any pilots who have not yet had extensive spin/spin recovery training.































http://youtu.be/p8_mJmR2qlw































Just do this! It could save a life!































Sean















F2















I think only a fool would argue spin training isn't a good idea. Whether it is "necessary" is a slightly different issue.















A view in the US is risks associated with spin training are about the same as the risks avoided so there is little to be gained one way or the other. Another is teaching stall/spin avoidance is more important and, as a practical matter, more useful than teaching spin recovery. That's why Part 61 doesn't require them except for flight instructors.















In support of that view, most German gliders built in the last 25 years are quite spin resistant - so much so it is difficult to get them to spin unless the CG is quite far aft. Probably this is why accident reports show a declining number of spin accidents (We've just figured out other ways to kill ourselves.)















The exception is many gliders from Eastern Europe which tend to be more "spinnable". I wouldn't suggest anyone fly these gliders without complete spin training.















I can't leave this subject without mentioning something I've noticed reading accident report narratives. Witness descriptions of "spin-in's" seem to leave open the possibility what they really saw was a spiral dive that developed from an incipient spin. The typical wording used by witnesses was something like, "The glider entered a diving turn which continued to impact." That's not how I would describe a spin but possibly what a spiral dive would look like. The unfortunate pilot seems to have inappropriately applied anti-spin controls when he could have survived if spiral dive recovery technique had been used.















The takehome for me is to make absolutely sure students know the difference between spins and spiral dives and how to recover from each.







I can't agree with the idea that German gliders don't spin. At least the ones I am most familiar with (ash26e, duo discus, ask21) will spin. At least you will get a nice spin departure, maybe it turns into a spiral dive quickly but on the turn to final that is only of academic interest.







If you are a serious glider pilot, why would you NOT want the training? If it is too scary then you certainly shouldn't be flying where I fly....



I said "spin resistant" not that they wouldn't spin.

I'm not sure what terms to use. I haven't noticed much "resistance" - get too slow in a turn and the wing drops into a spin departure. Not much different than the 2-32 or the eastern European gliders I have flown. They may be more resistant to a fully developed spin, but where this is typically a problem, 1/2 turn and you meet the trees.

Now a 2-33, that is somewhat "spin resistant" - but you can still get it to start!

One problem for training, its getting harder to find a glider that is certificated for intentional spins.

Hi, I think there are three different types of spin entry...

1. Accidental Spin Entry. (Hope it never happens.)
2. Simulated Accidental Spin Entry (as in Instructed Training.)
3. Deliberate Spin Entry, for aerobatic contests.

In the first cases the cause creeps up on you, maybe unnoticed... You may
not be looking at the yaw string of ASI at the right time, or perhaps you
fly into adverse atmospheric conditions.

In the aerobatic case the entry is more deliberate, and quick. With points
awarded for the neatness of the manoeuvre and the recovery.

I remember one (aerobatic trained) instructor trying to flick roll my
benign aircraft into an un-usual attitude, but I don't think he managed it,
as the recovery was a bit too easy.

Those of us who received our flight training in the US Air Force got plenty
of spin training.

During my military career, I became well acquainted with all three of the
types mentioned below. ...And they actually paid me a premium for having so
much fun!

Dan


"Peter Higgs" wrote in message
...
Hi, I think there are three different types of spin entry...

1. Accidental Spin Entry. (Hope it never happens.)
2. Simulated Accidental Spin Entry (as in Instructed Training.)
3. Deliberate Spin Entry, for aerobatic contests.

In the first cases the cause creeps up on you, maybe unnoticed... You may
not be looking at the yaw string of ASI at the right time, or perhaps you
fly into adverse atmospheric conditions.

In the aerobatic case the entry is more deliberate, and quick. With
points
awarded for the neatness of the manoeuvre and the recovery.

I remember one (aerobatic trained) instructor trying to flick roll my
benign aircraft into an un-usual attitude, but I don't think he managed
it,
as the recovery was a bit too easy.