Touring Motorgliders for Club Use and Instruction

In another thread, Garret Willat just wrote:
Even in our Stemme I cover the flight computer for the student and make them learn to read a map...
Since Garret seems to use this motorglider for instruction, I have a couple of questions for him and anyone who feels qualified to chime in. Our club is considering the acquisition of a Phoenix or similar touring motorglider for club operations.
The obvious advantages would be intense student training without the need for a tow pilot while covering all glider operations except for flying the tow. XC and thermaling training would be possible even in poor weather using the engine throttled back to simulate thermals. These LSA certified motorgliders can be operated with a glider-only license and a proper self-launch endorsement in the logbook. I would envision quite extensive use by our qualified club pilots during the week, during morning and late afternoon hours leaving a lot of time to fly with students.
Is this realistic? Do these airplanes hold up in a club environment? The Rotax 912 most use is now quite a proven powerplant and besides the feathering prop there are no complex systems to be considered (as would be necessary for retractable engines or even the Stemme).
Herb

They are almost ubiquitous over here in the UK. They're not generally used for instruction as the handling is too different from a glider. Instead, we use them to conduct our Navigation and mock Field Landing tests for bronze c and annual checks, and to fly trial visitors

I have to agree with the comment about handling. Motor gliders like the G-109, Katana Extreme, Sinus or Phoenix are really tail wheel aircraft and handle nothing like a glider during take-off and landing. Another consideration is that side-by-side seating creates a completely different sight picture when turning when compared to centreline seating

This means their use for basic circuit and landing training is limited. At my club we have discussed this and the general consensus is that something like a Super Falke or ASK-14 with centre line wheel is probably the best option for basic training.

For cross-coutry training, something like the Phoenix would do the job, but having flown a Katana Extreme, I would strike it from the list of candidates since I found it a horrible glider.

On Tuesday, February 18, 2014 7:40:12 PM UTC-7, Dave Springford wrote:
I have to agree with the comment about handling. Motor gliders like the G-109, Katana Extreme, Sinus or Phoenix are really tail wheel aircraft and handle nothing like a glider during take-off and landing.

I have found that he Sinus, with the motor off and the prop feathered flies very much like a modern glider in the landing phase and also in free flight. It would make an excellent trainer.
I have flown both the Gorb 109 and the Diamond HK-35 Katana Extreme. These fly nothing like a glider in any phase of flight. The controls, especially in roll, have sluggish response and high stick forces. I can not speak for the Phoenix as I have not flown one. During take off of course they fly nothing like a pure glider but the student does learn to just fly, manipulate the controls and get proper response. That counts for a lot and builds confidence.


Another consideration is that side-by-side seating creates a completely different sight picture when turning when compared to centerline seating

I really do not see this as a large or even medium stumbling block. Just teach the student how to put the glider down where he wants it to be. The principals are the same for any seating configuration.

Care must be taken about Primacy of Learning, the student must sit on the side of the cockpit that has their left hand controlling the airbrake lever because that is what it is going to be used for in a pure glider.

Many clubs in Germany and elsewhere have touring type motorgliders, they are used for student training, glider towing, and qualified members can take them on motor cross countries for holiday. That is a lot of bang for the buck, three great uses in one aircraft. Too bad the US FAA has created the restrictive operating categories that exist today rather than ones that allow the full use of these wonderful aircraft.

Having a cool looking, modern touring motorglider in your club's fleet could induce more power pilots to try the sport. It could, if properly used , offer an somewhat familiar gateway to pure soaring flight.

The great British glider pilot and author Derik Piggott wrote about using motorgliders for training many years ago. One wonders what he would think of the modern crop today.

Robert Mudd

Herb,

We use our Stemme for XC training and motorglider endorsements. We do NOT use to practice landings.

I also have a lot of time in privately owned G109, Tiafun, and Katana Extreme. They were all privatly owned, we would not buy one for our operation. Ill stick to thermalling and gliding in a 2-33.

You do get to not use a towplane, so less manpower is nice...1 person.

It is a lot more maintenance then your 2-33 or Cessna 150.

Simulating thermals...is that like late at night on-line simulating...oh nevermind.

You can contact me offline for more details if you want. But I agree with Dave and Robert.

There are definite advantage to motorgliders. I try and reiterate to all of my students that a motorglider is ALL of the complexity issues with a powerplane and a glider, combined together.

Garret

At 03:16 19 February 2014, Robert M wrote:
On Tuesday, February 18, 2014 7:40:12 PM UTC-7, Dave Springford wrote:
I have to agree with the comment about handling. Motor gliders like the
G=
-109, Katana Extreme, Sinus or Phoenix are really tail wheel aircraft
and
=
handle nothing like a glider during take-off and landing.=20

I have found that he Sinus, with the motor off and the prop feathered
flies=
very much like a modern glider in the landing phase and also in free
fligh=
t. It would make an excellent trainer.=20
I have flown both the Gorb 109 and the Diamond HK-35 Katana Extreme.
These
=
fly nothing like a glider in any phase of flight. The controls,
especially
=
in roll, have sluggish response and high stick forces. I can not speak
for
=
the Phoenix as I have not flown one. During take off of course they fly
not=
hing like a pure glider but the student does learn to just fly,
manipulate
=
the controls and get proper response. That counts for a lot and builds
conf=
idence.=20


Another consideration is that side-by-side seating creates a completely
d=
ifferent sight picture when turning when compared to centerline
seating=20

I really do not see this as a large or even medium stumbling block. Just
te=
ach the student how to put the glider down where he wants it to be. The
pri=
ncipals are the same for any seating configuration.=20

Care must be taken about Primacy of Learning, the student must sit on the
s=
ide of the cockpit that has their left hand controlling the airbrake
lever
=
because that is what it is going to be used for in a pure glider.=20

Many clubs in Germany and elsewhere have touring type motorgliders, they
ar=
e used for student training, glider towing, and qualified members can
take
=
them on motor cross countries for holiday. That is a lot of bang for the
bu=
ck, three great uses in one aircraft. Too bad the US FAA has created the
re=
strictive operating categories that exist today rather than ones that
allow=
the full use of these wonderful aircraft.=20

Having a cool looking, modern touring motorglider in your club's fleet
coul=
d induce more power pilots to try the sport. It could, if properly used ,
o=
ffer an somewhat familiar gateway to pure soaring flight.=20

The great British glider pilot and author Derik Piggott wrote about using
m=
otorgliders for training many years ago. One wonders what he would think
of=
the modern crop today.=20

Robert Mudd


I have several years of experience flying a Sinus, and now I am flying a
Silent2 Targa – both ultralights of course. I think that the Sinus is a
very nice aeroplane, well made, strong, reliable, and inexpensive to
maintain. It is very forgiving of pilot errors, you can even take-off with
full airbrake! As a glider it does not really feel exactly the same, but it
is light on the controls and you need a yaw string, so very similar to a
K13. The sink rate is a bit higher than a glider, so you need stronger
thermals, and of course the glide performance is not great (30:1 if you are
lucky). However, it is a very good introduction to all phases of glider
flying. The circuit technique is the same, you use the air-brakes with the
engine idle or off, you use the same heights, speeds and 'picture'. The
hold-off is similar too, the nose-wheel version is obviously more forgiving
and surprisingly, gives a similar impression to a glider, just a bit
higher. With the increasing interest in ultralight self-launchers, and
self-launchers in general, the Sinus must be hard to beat for training. The
glider training I experienced years ago was slow, variable, and
frustrating, it is not surprising that so many people simply give up the
unequal struggle – and it was not really particularly cheap, especially
for aerotowing only. Now, with a Sinus, pilots can cover all the aspects of
a basic PPL syllabus (which arguably is really essential for gliding too)
then, or simultaneously, pilots can slowly acquire the additional skills
that make gliding such an absorbing pastime.

On Tuesday, February 18, 2014 9:40:12 PM UTC-5, Dave Springford wrote:
I have to agree with the comment about handling. Motor gliders like the G-109, Katana Extreme, Sinus or Phoenix are really tail wheel aircraft and handle nothing like a glider during take-off and landing.

Dave, as far as I can tell ALL single place modern sailplanes are "tail wheel aircraft". What are you trying to say?
ST

A tailwheel aircraft with two main wheels and a tailwheel handle completely differently than a tailwheel glider with all the wheels on the glider's centre line.

They bounce more and they go around in circles on the ground much more easily.

At 00:34 20 February 2014, Dave Springford wrote:
A tailwheel aircraft with two main wheels and a tailwheel handle
completely
differently than a tailwheel glider with all the wheels on the glider's
centre line.

They bounce more and they go around in circles on the ground much more
easily.


As I said, my experience is that the nose-wheel version of the Sinus DOES
handle more like a glider on landing, certainly during the touchdown phase,
during the hold-off the nose does not obscure the view as much as the
tail-dragger version. Obviously you can indulge in 'wheelbarrowing' and
break the nose-leg if you do the sort of glider landing that I have seen a
lot in Europe!