Which PLB?

On Wednesday, April 2, 2014 10:02:20 AM UTC-7, Soartech wrote:
PLBs do ONE THING extremely well, but they do not supersede SPOT/INREACH.



Good observation. It won't be long before someone sees the advantage of this and comes up with a device that does BOTH.

I'll wait for that one.

Perfect is the Enemy of Good.

These PLBs and tracking devices cost a few hundred bucks, a few launches, an aero retreive or two, a couple of nice dinners out. By all means do an evaluation of your own risks and needs and buy whatever is appropriate, and that might be both. But waiting around for a device that does everything is unlikely to help anybody.

And in this case a combo device may be worse than two separate devices.

Waiting until somebody sees any advantage? That is not the issue, you think every vendor in this space does not fully understand the competing technology and have done so for years. And it has not happened yet. So maybe run the thought experiment and ask why.

Maybe more likely each vendor is worried their devices (e.g. PLB/tracker purchased at Amazon, REI etc.) are more impulse buys/purchased by not so sophisticated consumers who really don't know what much about what they are buying and therefore trying to explain these issues and justify a more expensive device is a marketing challenge they may not want to get into. And once a vendor does a combo device they are publicizing weaknesses in their standard devices. And batteries are going to be an issue. A manufacturer has to meet demanding PLB battery/shelf life/operating time specs and also allow a user to run down the device while using it for tracking. So two separate battery packs? One primary for the PLB and one rechargeable for the tracker? How much larger than the standard device can this be... give that batteries are a significant part of many of these products volume.

The redundancy of having two separate devices, with two separate battery packs, that signal distress/provide tracking by two entirely different means is a huge selling point in my book, much preferable if you are doing more extreme things than having a single device. And I want a PLB strapped to my harness, the tracking and some of the advanced two-way messaging features of an InReach may work better if the device is mounted in front of you on the glider not your parachute harness.

Darryl

On 3/04/2014 02:09, son_of_flubber wrote:

PLBs do ONE THING extremely well, but they do not supersede SPOT/INREACH.

No. That's back to front. PLBs do one thing extremely well and
Spot/Inreach does NOT supersede them.

Spot/Inreach is an interesting toy. A PLB is the real thing.

GC

On Wednesday, April 2, 2014 9:28:28 PM UTC-4, GC wrote:

Spot/Inreach is an interesting toy. A PLB is the real thing.

It's silly to turn this into a PC vs. MAC type argument.

The tracking and 'I'm OK' capabilities of SPOT/INREACH have real value and that base is not covered by a PLB.

On 3/04/2014 13:39, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Wednesday, April 2, 2014 9:28:28 PM UTC-4, GC wrote:

Spot/Inreach is an interesting toy. A PLB is the real thing.

It's silly to turn this into a PC vs. MAC type argument.

The tracking and 'I'm OK' capabilities of SPOT/INREACH have real
value and that base is not covered by a PLB.


Sorry. I'm not one of the IT passionistas and that's not what I
intended. The point I wanted to make is that a PLB and its capabilities
are defined by international agreements and specifications and if you
buy something called a PLB you know exactly what you're getting and you
know it will meet it's specs with near 100% reliability.

A Spot or Inreach box will (possibly) attempt to do what you think the
the maker has claimed if you have interpreted his advertsing accurately
(rather than the way he hopes you will - this is the nub of the "Aegean"
case). If it can't/doesn't do it, that is your problem unless you have
a deep pocket.

I repeat, a PLB is the real thing, Spot/Inreach is (so far) an
interesting toy.

GC

To answer the original question - my PLB transmits an emergency signal as
soon as you turn it on. You DO NOT deploy the antenna and turn it on uless
you really mean it. Otherwise it hangs placidly in a zipper case on the
right shoulder of my parachute harness.


"GC" wrote in message
eb.com...
On 3/04/2014 13:39, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Wednesday, April 2, 2014 9:28:28 PM UTC-4, GC wrote:

Spot/Inreach is an interesting toy. A PLB is the real thing.

It's silly to turn this into a PC vs. MAC type argument.

The tracking and 'I'm OK' capabilities of SPOT/INREACH have real
value and that base is not covered by a PLB.


Sorry. I'm not one of the IT passionistas and that's not what I intended.
The point I wanted to make is that a PLB and its capabilities are defined
by international agreements and specifications and if you buy something
called a PLB you know exactly what you're getting and you know it will
meet it's specs with near 100% reliability.

A Spot or Inreach box will (possibly) attempt to do what you think the the
maker has claimed if you have interpreted his advertsing accurately
(rather than the way he hopes you will - this is the nub of the "Aegean"
case). If it can't/doesn't do it, that is your problem unless you have a
deep pocket.

I repeat, a PLB is the real thing, Spot/Inreach is (so far) an interesting
toy.

GC

What happens if you moving when you activate it?
If a GPS model how often does it update the postion?

Brian

On Thursday, April 3, 2014 7:27:46 PM UTC-7, Brian wrote:
What happens if you moving when you activate it?

If a GPS model how often does it update the postion?

Brian

Read the manual for your particular unit. Then read it again. And make sure there is a manual or instruction sheet packed with the device. Any of these devices including InReach and SPOT, if really in distress there is stuff in the manual you may need to know.

Most modern PLB typically acquire a GPS fix fairly quickly (~ minute) and then renew that every 30 minutes. So if you move PLB the GPS location will be slightly inaccurate for some time. Obviously these are intended to deal with walking/drifting speed type movements where it is not really an issue. With many searchers that will also do final homing on the beacons (406 or 121.5... in many cases it will be 121.5 MHz). Regardless of GPS data, when you activate the PLB a signal is sent and received within about 1 minute and contains your PLB unique serial number registered to you, and the SAR organizations will start things based on that even if it does not have your location information (say you are down in a canyon or under a heavy forest canopy and cannot get a GPS fix). And in that case the polar orbit SARSAT satellites will start triangulating your fix if they can see the (relatively powerful 406 Mhz beacon) signal and they'll often have a good location to within a few miles within ~30 minutes or so. Put the PLB somewhere with a good sky view and the beacon antenna properly erected and don't move it around or dick with it, so the satellites can do their stuff.

And read the manual about how to do proper tests on these devices, and do them.

The SPOT and InReach have more usability issues/confusion that a relatively simple PLB. What do the different LEDs *really* mean? If a SPOT status says there is no GPS fix are track, OK, or HELP messages sent at all? I know everybody knows the answer to all those questions... right? In a bad situation you will want the manual packed with you.

Darryl

Well said, Darryl.

And, at least for me, I could care less if everyone knows where I am every
minute of the day, even if I land out. My PLB is for emergency use only
(not a land out) and will not be taken out of its pouch until I'm ready to
activate it if I can. I will not be futzing with it during flight or
parachute descent. If I have no cell coverage, I'll start walking. If I
can't walk, I'll activate the PLB.

"darrylr" wrote in message
...
On Thursday, April 3, 2014 7:27:46 PM UTC-7, Brian wrote:
What happens if you moving when you activate it?

If a GPS model how often does it update the postion?

Brian

Read the manual for your particular unit. Then read it again. And make sure
there is a manual or instruction sheet packed with the device. Any of these
devices including InReach and SPOT, if really in distress there is stuff in
the manual you may need to know.

Most modern PLB typically acquire a GPS fix fairly quickly (~ minute) and
then renew that every 30 minutes. So if you move PLB the GPS location will
be slightly inaccurate for some time. Obviously these are intended to deal
with walking/drifting speed type movements where it is not really an issue.
With many searchers that will also do final homing on the beacons (406 or
121.5... in many cases it will be 121.5 MHz). Regardless of GPS data, when
you activate the PLB a signal is sent and received within about 1 minute and
contains your PLB unique serial number registered to you, and the SAR
organizations will start things based on that even if it does not have your
location information (say you are down in a canyon or under a heavy forest
canopy and cannot get a GPS fix). And in that case the polar orbit SARSAT
satellites will start triangulating your fix if they can see the (relatively
powerful 406 Mhz beacon) signal and they'll often have a good location to
within a few miles within ~30 minutes or so. Put the PLB somewhere with a
good sky view and the beacon antenna properly erected and don't move it
around or dick with it, so the satellites can do their stuff.

And read the manual about how to do proper tests on these devices, and do
them.

The SPOT and InReach have more usability issues/confusion that a relatively
simple PLB. What do the different LEDs *really* mean? If a SPOT status says
there is no GPS fix are track, OK, or HELP messages sent at all? I know
everybody knows the answer to all those questions... right? In a bad
situation you will want the manual packed with you.

Darryl

On Friday, April 4, 2014 9:18:09 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:

And, at least for me, I could care less if everyone knows where I am every
minute of the day, even if I land out.

There are some interesting 'and then things went butt up' stories out there about how a scheduled "I'm OK" from SPOT was not delivered (Don't worry honey. I'll send you an "I'm OK" every day at noon). The person expecting the "I'm OK" panics and calls out SARS (or the sheriff).

Given the potential for dropped messages, it is asking for trouble to raise the expectation of a scheduled "I'm OK" message. The tracking feature is not quite so bad, because if a message is dropped, another one will be attempted in a few minutes (and hopefully it will get through).

My PLB is for emergency use only

(not a land out) and will not be taken out of its pouch until I'm ready to

activate it if I can. I will not be futzing with it during flight or

parachute descent. If I have no cell coverage, I'll start walking. If I

can't walk, I'll activate the PLB.

Having gotten lost once in my younger and more foolish days on a 'short hike', I carry a compass for potential walkouts. It is really easy to get turned around here abouts.

Thanks Darryl,

I don't current have a PLB, but have been looking at them. Hence the reason for the post. So I don't yet have a manual to read, and don't know what is common between units, so reading one manual might not apply to other units..

The question came up be cause I recently heard 2nd hand of someone inadvertently setting their PLB off in a rather high performance airplane. I was wonder what this looks like to the SAR folks. If it is 30 minutes in between GPS fixes then in this case they probably would have been 75 miles apart.

But the main reason I asked is so that I could understand what happens if it is intentionally set off and then the unit is moved by hiking out for example.

Thanks again

Brian