Cockpit Size and Comfort

The "trailer argument" has a lot to do with the budget involved. If you are looking at a fairly recent glider (say, from the 90s on) you are pretty sure to get a fairly decent Cobra or equivalent trailer with it. But if your wallet is a bit thinner and you are looking at G-102s, ASW-19s, Std Cirrus (Cirri?), etc, then the trailer can make a LOT of difference - A replacement could end up costing almost as much as the glider!

As in all advice given on RAS, it's worth every penny paid for...but there usually is a grain of truth buried in it somewhere.

Kirk
66

On Tuesday, May 5, 2015 at 4:29:15 PM UTC-4, kirk.stant wrote:
The "trailer argument" has a lot to do with the budget involved. If you are looking at a fairly recent glider (say, from the 90s on) you are pretty sure to get a fairly decent Cobra or equivalent trailer with it. But if your wallet is a bit thinner and you are looking at G-102s, ASW-19s, Std Cirrus (Cirri?), etc, then the trailer can make a LOT of difference - A replacement could end up costing almost as much as the glider!

As in all advice given on RAS, it's worth every penny paid for...but there usually is a grain of truth buried in it somewhere.

Kirk
66

I had a different take on the saying. I always thought it meant that if the guy took care of the trailer, then he was careful with the glider as well. When you see a glider or any major purchase like a car....you are seeing the glider all shined up and ready for inspection, you are not seeing the little things that add up like waxing and religious maintenance that some pilots are more likely to do then others.

That said i have had to put more money in my trailer then the glider -.

Dennis

Then I guess I don't really know what a "****ty trailer" is.

The homebuilt trailer that my ASW-19 came in was awful until I made a
few minor modifications to make setting up the trailer for rigging
quickly. That mainly amounted to a bolted-on support on the top of the
tail gate which placed the gate at the proper height for rigging; when
extended, the main wheel was only about 1/2 inch off the ground. I also
added tracks on the tail gate to guide the cradle, and stops so that the
glider could be put back on the cradle for derigging.

Those few mods allowed me to get rid of a rickety jack and a couple of
pieces of wood that were previously used to prop up the tail gate. I
probably spent less than $20 on those mods and could then rig about as
quickly as the Cobra guys. Of course, I couldn't leave a wing on the
dolly while walking it around but then I always had a helper in rigging.

I was younger then, too...

On 5/5/2015 11:57 AM, wrote:
On Tuesday, May 5, 2015 at 10:54:48 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
snip
Gotta call BS on the trailer thing. If it's flying you want, who
cares about the trailer? It might add 10-15 minutes to rig and
derig times but that's a miniscule part of the soaring day.

snip
Dan Marotta
If you think a ****ty trailer only adds 10-15 minutes, then you never used a real "****ty" one !

Todd Smith
3S

--
Dan Marotta

Well, I do now keep my glider rigged and in a hangar but that's mostly
due to getting older and lazier and the high afternoon winds at
Moriarty. That also allows me to arrive late at the airport and sip a
cold one immediately after flying. My LAK T5
http://www.soaringmarket.com/uploads/44/T4_rear_small.jpg trailer is
every bit as functional as a Cobra and I have a solo rigger.

On 5/5/2015 12:25 PM, joesimmers wrote:
Gotta call BS on the trailer thing. If it's flying you want, who
cares about the trailer? It might add 10-15 minutes to rig and
derig times but that's a miniscule part of the soaring day.





Hmm.. Let me guess, you keep your glider rigged and in a hangar?

The trailer is pretty important when you rig/derig every flight.

--
Dan Marotta

Gotta call BS on the trailer thing. If it's flying you want, who
cares about the trailer? It might add 10-15 minutes to rig and
derig times but that's a miniscule part of the soaring day.

Hmm.. Let me guess, you keep your glider rigged and in a hangar?

The trailer is pretty important when you rig/derig every flight.

"Indeed it is," sez someone (me ) who only rarely ever had access to a
hangar over nearly 40 years of routinely rigging/derigging before/after each
flight...and helping others do the same at our (still) hangar-less home field.
BTDT!!! (In fact, I still think it's weird to go to a glider site where many
gliders are kept rigged in hangars.)

My "pig of a trailer" weighed nearly as much - empty - as my 2600 lb tow
vehicle. It loaded and unloaded over the tongue, and lacked such minor
niceties as a tongue jack and tire fenders. As-received, it also lacked a
functional fuselage dolly, and effectively-wheeled wingroot dollies. Of course
it lacked trailer brakes. I eventually allowed 2 neighbor kids to beat the
plywood monster into splinters and shards, laid the remains on the trailer
floor, trailered the mess to the dump (and brought the running gear back with
me...only to ultimately haul *that* to another dump decades later!). From that
experience and seeing/helping rig/derig from/into all manner of trailers,
including those requiring doubled-over owners to hand-haul wingroots to their
enclosed-trailer, in-trailer, resting supports, I think it accurate to say
I've seen just about every way to rig a glider trailer...both enclosed and
open. Some of the worst led me - and not only in in my callow, feckless youth
- to question the thought processes and sanity of their designers!

I can also recall when I saw my first single-man-rigging trailer...a Dick
Brandt designed/built beauty enclosing an Open Jantar with single-piece wings.

Trailers very definitely ARE an integral part of glider ownership if your
situation involves daily rigging and derigging, and trailers that eliminate
avoidable actions are huge improvements over many I've seen and worked with.
That said, just as pilot differences are a much more significant contributor
to one's XC chances than is ship L/D, pilots who don't recognize that ANY
process can be optimized, can be larger contributors to ship rigging/derigging
agony than improvements even the nicest Cobra trailer bring to the table.

I eventually reached the point where I'd quietly slink away from certain
pilots looking for rigging assistance, due entirely to their frustrating-to-me
approaches to rigging: personal inefficiency; brute force; unwillingness to
listen to truly helpful suggestions; etc.

As for ship rigging ease, I've never encountered any gliders that were
outright difficult to rig...ALL rigging difficulties were due entirely to
pilot ignorance and/or obtuseness. My two worst riggings involved assisting
owners with a PIK-20B (a genuinely easy ship to rig), and a G-102 (similarly
easy, if one simply pays attention to wing alignment...and unlocking the root
ball bearings!).

My - worth every cent paid for it - advice to "prospective new-to-them glass
ship owners" is buy any ship you fit in that has an acceptable-to-you price,
and fly the bejabbers out of it every chance you get/make. If/when you reach
the stage where ship-or-trailer-related things start to become excuses to NOT
fly, it's time either to remedy things or to move on to something else...but
you gotta be honest with yourself about your druthers.

Bob W.

Bob W. hit on the absolutely best argument about the trailer issue (now that this thread has drifted so far from the initial query).

If the rigging procedure is so painful that it causes a reduction in your airtime (Should I? It doesn't look that good. Maybe tomorrow...) then you need a better trailer or rigging procedure.

Similarly, if you have to land early to make sure you have assistance to de-rig (Hey! Where did everybody go?) then you need a better trailer or de-rigging procedure.

I still like the hangar option, and as an added benefit, I save ounces of pennies on wing tape.

Le mercredi 6 mai 2015 03:48:15 UTC+2, Mark628CA a écrit*:
Bob W. hit on the absolutely best argument about the trailer issue (now that this thread has drifted so far from the initial query).

If the rigging procedure is so painful that it causes a reduction in your airtime (Should I? It doesn't look that good. Maybe tomorrow...) then you need a better trailer or rigging procedure.

Similarly, if you have to land early to make sure you have assistance to de-rig (Hey! Where did everybody go?) then you need a better trailer or de-rigging procedure.

I still like the hangar option, and as an added benefit, I save ounces of pennies on wing tape.

Absolutely.
I've been through a number of trailers and sailplane riggings (from the easy selfrigging of my Venuts cM to rigging the SB-10 every day with a minimum team of 5).
If your glider is new (to you), you'll take any pain to get to fly it.
After some time, you will start to optimize the rigging procedure because you don't want "any pain" anymore, and that may include upgrading the trailer.

On Sunday, May 3, 2015 at 10:04:57 AM UTC-4, Mike Rinaldi wrote:
I am looking to purchase a new (to me) XC ship. Which ones have the largest/roomiest cockpit? Not for a tall person, one with broad shoulders, about 5'9 and 200lbs. Discuss and Thank you in advance!

Mike I know this is a few years old, but I am going through the same issue as you. I'm presently flying a PIK20 and it's really too small. What glider did you purchase and how is the fit? I am 5'9" and 210. 34" waist, 46" chest.

I would like to restart this thread: I amd 6'4", 210lbs, lanky former high school basketball player build. I flew an ASW-20C for 200+ hours but it was a tight fit even with the seat back removed and custom cushions installed. I am in the market for a newer generation glider: ASW-27/29/24, Ventus 2a/b, maybe ASH-26 (I ruled out LS ships due to the small cockpits and (I believe) lack of crashworthy cockpits in -6,8,10.)
Can I get some input from guys near my size as to the fit in these gliders?
Have learned all the tricks: My chute has been rigged to move bulk down low, I wear hiking shoes with thin heels, used astronaut foam in seat/back cushions, I cut my beer consumption (OK, sorry, that was a bridge too far.)
Any constructive input would be appreciated.
Gene

DG-600 might fit well. I fly DG-300 and it is about the only one i found where i am comfortable.

S