Spitfire Controls

Anyone out there that has flown or been in the cockpit of a
Supermarine Spitfire? I am wondering about the circular control
"handle" particular to the British fighter and how it seems to me that
it would have been quite awkward or uncomfortable to use (compared to
a conventional fighter stick) especially in a dogfighting situation

Never flew a Spit (Dammmit), but I can tell you that "especially in a
dogfighting situation," being able to move the stick with both hands
would be an advantage. After a few minutes of trying to get on the
other guy's six it's hard manual labor, even with trim tabs. I
imagine that was the reason for the circular top on the stick.

It was not a "wheel." It didn't turn. It operated just like an
ordinary stick except that it was hinged part-way down and "bent" left
or right when aileron was applied.

vince norris

In article ,
Ken Duffey writes:
N329DF wrote:
It is very easy to fly, for me even more comfortable than a stick. I can't say
about in combat, but I have flown in Tiger Moth, Harvard Mk.II and Spitfire TR
IX, and all had circle control sticks.
Matt Gunsch,
A&P,IA,Private Pilot
Riding member of the
2003 world champion drill team
Arizona Precision Motorcycle Drill Team
GWRRA,NRA,GOA


As an addendum to N-6's original question..............

Did the stick move from side-to-side - or was it just the spade grip
that moved for aileron control ??

The stick had a pivot at about half its height - the top part of teh
stick, with the spade grip would pivot. It's a neat solution -
British cockpits tended to be on the small side, and doing the stick
that way gave you more throw without your legs getting in the way.

ISTR seeing pics of the stick in the central position with just the
spade displaced to one side.

Well, the spade grip & the upper portion.

I also assume the the whole spade/stick moved for-and-aft for elevator
control ??

Yep.

SOmebody mentioned the Brake Lever, I think. That's an important
point. Unlike the toe brakes on aircraft produced by others, brakes
on Brit airplanes were activated by a single lever. It's a lot easier
to deal with with the spade grip.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

In article ,
"Yann D" writes:
btw, I have often read that japanese pilots were unhappy with the MG/cannon
(A6M, J2M) firing with different ballistic behaviour, but never heard about
Spit pilots complaints except about the early Hispano jamming and recoil
shake.
Any hints ?

The Japanese 20mm cannon used on the A6ms was a low velocity weapon
with a fairly poor ballistic coefficient. (So lots of drop). The
20mm Hispano used by the Brits as a high velocity weapon with a better
shell design, and it matched fairly well with the trajectory of teh
Browning .30 and .50 guns over teh ranges normally encountered in
combat.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

In article , Cub Driver
writes

On a trivial point, I have a 30 year old US-made screwdriver which has a
spherical handle and can thus be gripped with the whole hand - it is a
dream to use compared to the straight and/or or pistol-grip types -

I inherited one of these from my father, though spherical is not how I
would describe the handle. More an elongated oval, made of wood, with
a metal top to defend it from the inevitable carpenter who would use
it as a chisel.

This one was a modern plastic type with ratchet and interchangeable tips
- must have been an early one to feature these.

It was older than 30 years, however. My father bought his tools in the
late 1930s / early 1940s. My son-in-law still uses some of them.

My uncle left me a tool chest full of woodworking gear - I may get
around to doing a bit of whittling sometime...carve a couple of those
big scale model P-51s and Spitfires...

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! www.vivabush.org

Cheers,

Dave

--
Dave Eadsforth

In article et,
Frijoles writes
I laughed out loud at your decription of the Harrier stick. It took a few
minutes for me to figure out how to hold the bloomin' thing when I first saw
it.

An octopus would probably get on okay with it...

Over time I came to love flying the jet even with all its British
peculiarities (among the others -- pushbuttons for "undercarriage" extension
and retraction).

The early Spitfires featured a lever that moved 90 degrees to operate
the undercarriage hydraulics, but it invited disaster. The lever had to
be swung downwards and then it would automatically snap itself back into
the locking notch. The pilot had to resist the temptation to help the
lever back into the locking notch as this cut off the hydraulic pressure
while the wheels were still coming down. Quite a few novices did try to
land with wheels hardly out of the housings.

So the buttons are there to make things simple!

I too wondered about the circle thing watching "B.O.B." the other night.
Seems its just something one got used to over time.

SNIP old stuff

A fellow air cadet and I raided a fire dump when staying at an RAF
station (MANY years ago). We got the control column tops out of a
Meteor trainer destined for fire practice - I got the 'modern' handle
and my pal got the WWII spade grip. Wish we'd done it the other way
around now...

Cheers,

Dave

--
Dave Eadsforth

Dave Eadsforth wrote:

In article et,
Frijoles writes

snip

I too wondered about the circle thing watching "B.O.B." the other night.
Seems its just something one got used to over time.

SNIP old stuff

A fellow air cadet and I raided a fire dump when staying at an RAF
station (MANY years ago). We got the control column tops out of a
Meteor trainer destined for fire practice - I got the 'modern' handle
and my pal got the WWII spade grip. Wish we'd done it the other way
around now...

Which reminds me -- the spade grip was pretty much SOP for RAF fighters during
WW2. Anyone know which a/c first dispensed with it and went with a standard
sticktop? I know the Hunter had a regular top, although it too was pivoted about
halfway down to avoid the "hitting the knee" problems that Pete mentioned. OTOH
it had powered controls, so brute force wasn't an issue, and they could have
geared the stick throw however they wanted. Anyone know what the Meteor and
Vampire used? IIRR the latter had the hand-operated brake lever, so probably had
the spade grip.

Guy

Unlike the toe brakes on aircraft produced by others, brakes
on Brit airplanes were activated by a single lever.

The Piper Colt had a single brake handle, but at least it was a trike.
It must have been a bear, handling a taildragger on the ground without
differential brakes, especially on asphalt.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! weblog www.vivabush.org

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 07:53:54 GMT, Guy Alcala
wrote:

Which reminds me -- the spade grip was pretty much SOP for RAF fighters during
WW2. Anyone know which a/c first dispensed with it and went with a standard
sticktop? I know the Hunter had a regular top, although it too was pivoted about
halfway down to avoid the "hitting the knee" problems that Pete mentioned. OTOH
it had powered controls, so brute force wasn't an issue, and they could have
geared the stick throw however they wanted. Anyone know what the Meteor and
Vampire used? IIRR the latter had the hand-operated brake lever, so probably had
the spade grip.

Yup, the Vampires (at least up to the FB.5) had the spade grip
according to the pilot's notes I've seen.

Gavin Bailey

--

Apply three phase AC 415V direct to MB. This work real good. How you know, you
ask? Simple, chip get real HOT. System not work, but no can tell from this.
Exactly same as before. Do it now. - Bart Kwan En

Unlike the toe brakes on aircraft produced by others, brakes
on Brit airplanes were activated by a single lever.

The Piper Colt had a single brake handle, but at least it was a trike.
It must have been a bear, handling a taildragger on the ground without
differential brakes, especially on asphalt.

They had differential brakes. with the pedals center, when the lever is pulled,
you got pressure to both brakes, if you have the left pedal in, you get left
brake, if you got right pedal in, you get right brake. The system is very easy
to operate, just I don't like air systems, it can be a bitch finding a leak.
Matt Gunsch,
A&P,IA,Private Pilot
Riding member of the
2003 world champion drill team
Arizona Precision Motorcycle Drill Team
GWRRA,NRA,GOA

In article ,
Guy Alcala writes:
Dave Eadsforth wrote:

In article et,
Frijoles writes

snip

I too wondered about the circle thing watching "B.O.B." the other night.
Seems its just something one got used to over time.

SNIP old stuff

A fellow air cadet and I raided a fire dump when staying at an RAF
station (MANY years ago). We got the control column tops out of a
Meteor trainer destined for fire practice - I got the 'modern' handle
and my pal got the WWII spade grip. Wish we'd done it the other way
around now...

Which reminds me -- the spade grip was pretty much SOP for RAF fighters during
WW2. Anyone know which a/c first dispensed with it and went with a standard
sticktop? I know the Hunter had a regular top, although it too was pivoted about
halfway down to avoid the "hitting the knee" problems that Pete mentioned. OTOH
it had powered controls, so brute force wasn't an issue, and they could have
geared the stick throw however they wanted. Anyone know what the Meteor and
Vampire used? IIRR the latter had the hand-operated brake lever, so probably had
the spade grip.

The Vampire, at least the T.11/T.35 most definitely has a regular
stick grip. The brake lever sits in front, sort of like that of a
bicycle. (It's not as comfortable as teh grip on a T-33, though -
just a straight handle.

Here's a pictu (watch the wrap)
http://www.airmuseumsuk.org/dhaircra...%20cockpit.htm


--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster