Confusing SSA hand signals that should be changed

Because we're running a club and training operation, not a contest launch.

There are plenty of circumstances in which student plus instructor might need an extra five seconds to sort something out. Absent the rudder wag, your only recourse at "all out" is hit the release. That's not very efficient.

best,
Evan Ludeman / T8

On Tuesday, March 27, 2018 at 9:33:29 PM UTC-4, Dave Springford wrote:
Why the rudder waggle?

On Tuesday, March 27, 2018 at 6:53:15 PM UTC-4, Tango Eight wrote:
Kirk makes good points.

Here's what we do at Post Mills. We've made converts out of three other clubs in the region. It works well.

Our signal to take up slack is to level the wings of the glider. The wing runner "confirms" this by giving the take up slack signal as slack taking proceeds. As slack comes out, wing runner raises arm vertically, wing stays level. When ready to begin the launch, the glider gives a rudder wag, confirmed by the wing runner windmilling his arm. The tow pilot acknowledges with a brief rudder wag, then begins the take off.

Efficient, water ballast compatible, easy for everyone involved to see and understand. Why isn't the SSF teaching this?

best regards,
Evan Ludeman / T8

We use the following;
Wing down: Stop. Not ready to go.
Wing rocking: shoulder to knee- Ready to go- take up slack
Wings level. Ready to go- take off- all out.
All are visible in shaking mirror and not easily mistaken
If at any time operation needs to stop. - Wing down.
All pilots trained from the get go to pull the release if rope comes tight with wing down.
We teach rudder wag for purposes of standardization so our pilots know what may be expected at other sites.
FWIW
UH

My old club used to work with the Civil Air Patrol, supplying towplane, gliders and sometimes glider pilots to give cadets orientation flights. One disagreement over signals led to some pretty heated discussions.

Our club practice was to keep the wing on the ground until slack was removed glider pilot gave the thumbs up and the runner checked the pattern etc. He would then raise the wing. Rudders were waggled at both ends and if the runner felt it was safe gave the launch signal. The thought process was that it was easy for the tug pilot to see the wing's position. If the wing was down, stand by. CAP insisted that the wing should be raised to indicate the tug could take up slack citing their (and SSA's?) wing runner course. The problem was that the mix of tug and glider pilots varied. Sometimes one or both being ours, sometimes theirs. I've seen it done both ways. It seems to me that a takeoff commencing when the glider pilot isn't ready is less likely the way we did it. If the wing is up, the glider pilot is ready. But, when in Rome...

The FAA handbook says "Pilot ready, wings level — when the glider pilot is ready for takeoff, a thumbs up signal is given and the wing
runner will level the wing to the takeoff position".

We often fly with water ballast at Moriarty, and some pilots prefer to bring their gliders to the launch line with wing wheels still in place, due to venting issues. With one wing down, water leaks from the wing at a pretty fast rate on some gliders. This can cause an imbalance, so we don't mind keeping the wing level as much as possible. As a result, we do not teach tow pilots that "wings level" implies anything at all. On the other hand, if the wing runner puts the wing DOWN, that means "HOLD!" Plus, there is a two arms up (crossed or held out) to signal a halt to operations.

The only justification for taking up slack with the wingtip on the ground is that it leaves the wingrunner with both hands free to give that much-deprecated stop signal.

As a towpilot, I'm very reluctant to take up slack while the wingtip is on the ground. It looks too much like a glider with nobody in it.

I'm with Evan on this one.

At 19:57 28 March 2018, S2 wrote:
The only justification for taking up slack with the wingtip on the ground
is that it leaves the wingrunner with both hands free to give that
much-deprecated stop signal.

As a towpilot, I'm very reluctant to take up slack while the wingtip is
on
the ground. It looks too much like a glider with nobody in it.

I'm with Evan on this one.


The UK BGA has specified a standard set of signals that make sense, work
and are used universally. They have the huge advantage that you can go to
a different club and get or help with a launch with minimal confusion or
misunderstanding.

There are differences between clubs, for example Sutton Bank use a separate
signaller while at Booker the wing runner does the signalling. The signals
are the same. We were able to adapt within a few seconds.

Doesn't the USA have something similar?

Chris

On Thursday, March 29, 2018 at 7:45:06 AM UTC+11, Chris Rowland wrote:
At 19:57 28 March 2018, S2 wrote:
The only justification for taking up slack with the wingtip on the ground
is that it leaves the wingrunner with both hands free to give that
much-deprecated stop signal.

As a towpilot, I'm very reluctant to take up slack while the wingtip is
on
the ground. It looks too much like a glider with nobody in it.

I'm with Evan on this one.


The UK BGA has specified a standard set of signals that make sense, work
and are used universally. They have the huge advantage that you can go to
a different club and get or help with a launch with minimal confusion or
misunderstanding.

There are differences between clubs, for example Sutton Bank use a separate
signaller while at Booker the wing runner does the signalling. The signals
are the same. We were able to adapt within a few seconds.

Doesn't the USA have something similar?

Chris

Aah, but you're in the UK. The USA is the land of individualism, where a nationally adopted procedure might be seen as some kind of socialist imposition :-)



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Has it happened that slack was taken up or a t/o roll started with no one in the glider AND a wing runner signaling to do so? I'm guessing so.

In any case, when in Rome, do as the Romans! In other words, if you are new to an operation, brief.

“The pilot of the towing aircraft and the glider have agreed upon a
general course of action, including takeoff and release signals,
airspeeds, and emergency procedures for each pilot.�

Yes, we do. Since the late 1940's the SSA/Soaring Safety Foundation has had a standard set of signals. http://soaringsafety.org/briefings/signals.html

The FAA Glider Flying Handbook includes these standard signals. They are part of training of every glider pilot. This being the USA, however, most people are pretty sure they have a better idea.

On Thursday, March 29, 2018 at 1:51:08 PM UTC-5, Tony wrote:
Yes, we do. Since the late 1940's the SSA/Soaring Safety Foundation has had a standard set of signals. http://soaringsafety.org/briefings/signals.html

The FAA Glider Flying Handbook includes these standard signals. They are part of training of every glider pilot. This being the USA, however, most people are pretty sure they have a better idea.

Ah, but Tony, they occasionally change - ref the signal to STOP - and are obviously not carved in stone. When they were first established, was there any consideration of the need to keep a modern tanked glider level if carrying water? Or the need to level the wings long enough to balance a partial load? Or of the development of tow rope winches for towplanes? All these result in local (or situational - races) changes to the "standard" rules.

Back to the wingrunner "start the launch" signal - I can see the utility of it as a repeat of the PICs final signal (rudder waggle). Emphasis on REPEAT, "foot stomp", because I do not want the decision to launch made by the wing runner. And perhaps it is a local problem, but I often look in the mirror and watch the wing get raised (glider pilot gave the wing runner the thumbs up "ready" signal) then immediately the wing runner gives the takeoff sign - followed by the pilot giving the rudder waggle!

Maybe now that it's the 21th century we should require actual communication between the tow and glider pilot!

It's nice that the Brits have a standardized system. Does all of Europe? Just watched a video of the Diana 3 launching, and all I saw was a rudder waggle. All the wing runner did was hold the wing level. What is the process in France? Germany? Poland?

Anyway, discussion is good and fun. Come on Cu's!

66