Average time to solo a student

On Thursday, 7 June 2018 06:23:14 UTC+8, SoaringXCellence wrote:
All,

As a pilot examiner (USA) for gliders and a 22-year glider instructor, I'd like to add a few points:

In the USA just being able to take-off fly well and land does not fulfill the solo flight requirements in FAR 61.87, there are 19 items! The requirements are to train and LOG the training in each of the 19 elements. I find that many logbooks are not complete with regard to the accurate logging of the training and are often very vague as to what was trained.

I had a student come to me for instruction, who had been signed off for solo, but had never done a stall!! That clearly doesn't meet the requirements and or any logic for safety.

One of the items, #13, is for training in the assembly and dis-assembly of gliders. That one seems to be often left until after the solo. I also find that occasionally I need to contact the CFIG to insure that the training has actually been done, and to get an entry in the logbook to the attest to the training. This is during the practical test!

Another, #18 Procedures and techniques for thermalling, is often weak even in the Commercial pilots that come to me. Proper entry to a thermal, right-of-way and centering are the minimum I expect to be trained, actually being able to gain altitude is a bonus.

Check out the list, I think you'll see several areas that are frequently only lightly touched.

All these omissions are more frequent when the glider operation does not have a closely monitored training process or there are frequent changes of instructor.

OK, I'm stepping down from my soapbox,

Mike Bamberg

Agree mike, solo is a standard not a number of flights. Even the best students need to demonstrate consistency & good judgement over time & different conditions. Trying to get them to solo in the minimum number of launches for commercial or ego reasons is ill-advised. And the inevitable conversations around how few flights you went solo in don't serve any purpose other than to egos .. maybe you were good & maybe your instructor didn't cover everything as thoroughly as they should have .. either way, it's not really relevant now!

Richard McLean

On Wed, 06 Jun 2018 20:13:45 -0700, Papa3 wrote:

So, do many European clubs have a formal process to do something like
this? Use aerotow to get some air-time early on to develop the basic
stick and rudder skills followed by winch to enable multiple patterns
(circuits) cost-effectively.

My club, Cambridge, does almost all training on the winch. I think the
only aero-tows I had pre-solo were for spinning exercises, and that was
and is still pretty much the norm. I didn't get an aero tow solo sign-off
until I'd been solo for a year, and I only worked for that because I knew
I'd be flying on your side of the pond that October - 2001: I was at Lost
Hills, CA for the World Free Flight Champs and Sacramento for the Sierra
Cup and got to fly gliders at Boulder, Avenal, Williams and Minden, so a
good trip from all points of view.

Back then we used a flying list rather than the current booked two-seat
flying system, so there tended to be more people at the launch point. As
a result, if a group of us worked at it we could hit 18 launches an hour
on a two-drum winch but that did require one person dedicated to driving
the cable retrieve truck and another two ground handling helpers - thats
in addition to the usual launch marshal and log keeper - and needs all
student-instructor briefing to be completed before they're at the head of
the two parallel launch queues we normally use. Fun to do!

Now, with booked flying, the reduced waiting time at the launch point
means the experience is better for those learning to fly, but the reduced
number of people at the launch point limits the launch rate to 10 an hour
or less.

Just curious,

Hope that's useful input.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

On Thu, 07 Jun 2018 10:10:30 +0000, Martin Gregorie wrote:

On Wed, 06 Jun 2018 20:13:45 -0700, Papa3 wrote:

So, do many European clubs have a formal process to do something like
this? Use aerotow to get some air-time early on to develop the basic
stick and rudder skills followed by winch to enable multiple patterns
(circuits) cost-effectively.

My club, Cambridge, does almost all training on the winch. I think the
only aero-tows I had pre-solo were for spinning exercises, and that was
and is still pretty much the norm. I didn't get an aero tow solo
sign-off until I'd been solo for a year, and I only worked for that
because I knew I'd be flying on your side of the pond that October -
2001: I was at Lost Hills, CA for the World Free Flight Champs and
Sacramento for the Sierra Cup and got to fly gliders at Boulder, Avenal,
Williams and Minden, so a good trip from all points of view.

Back then we used a flying list rather than the current booked two-seat
flying system, so there tended to be more people at the launch point. As
a result, if a group of us worked at it we could hit 18 launches an hour
on a two-drum winch but that did require one person dedicated to driving
the cable retrieve truck and another two ground handling helpers - thats
in addition to the usual launch marshal and log keeper - and needs all
student-instructor briefing to be completed before they're at the head
of the two parallel launch queues we normally use. Fun to do!

Now, with booked flying, the reduced waiting time at the launch point
means the experience is better for those learning to fly, but the
reduced number of people at the launch point limits the launch rate to
10 an hour or less.

Just curious,

Hope that's useful input.

I should have added that the BGA provides a booklet listing the
accomplishments needed to solo. All students have a copy that the
instructor uses to sign off items as they're completed satisfactorily.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

Power transition. Soloed after 4 flights in a glider, flight #4 being a simulated rope break. All before lunch on my first day flying gliders.

At 10:54 07 June 2018, wrote:
Power transition. Soloed after 4 flights in a glider, flight #4 being a
simulated rope break. All before lunch on my first day flying gliders.



It can be done in one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AiPKrsHql4

Way to go, Greg!

Of course it's not about quickly doing a solo takeoff and landing for an
experienced pilot.Â* After my quick solo in Hawaii, I returned to Texas,
joined a club, and underwent the full training - filling all those
squares, so to speak.

On 6/7/2018 4:54 AM, wrote:
Power transition. Soloed after 4 flights in a glider, flight #4 being a simulated rope break. All before lunch on my first day flying gliders.

--
Dan, 5J

On Thursday, June 7, 2018 at 3:54:17 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Power transition. Soloed after 4 flights in a glider, flight #4 being a simulated rope break. All before lunch on my first day flying gliders.

Interestingly, the Add-on training to an existing certificate is not defined, except, that the pilot being trained is not a student pilot and therefore, by regulation, none of the "solo" requirements apply. The practical test proficiency and 10 solo flight are all that's required.

Again, with regard to these add-on ratings, there is often MUCH left out of the required knowledge by instructors who specialize in "add-on" training. There is not an additional knowledge test required, so the examiner is often the bearer of sad news when the very experienced airplane pilot cannot discus thermals, and all the other aspects of soaring flight.

But they and take-off and land!

Again stepping down from my soapbox.

Mike

On Thursday, June 7, 2018 at 8:40:12 PM UTC-4, SoaringXCellence wrote:
On Thursday, June 7, 2018 at 3:54:17 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Power transition. Soloed after 4 flights in a glider, flight #4 being a simulated rope break. All before lunch on my first day flying gliders.

Interestingly, the Add-on training to an existing certificate is not defined, except, that the pilot being trained is not a student pilot and therefore, by regulation, none of the "solo" requirements apply. The practical test proficiency and 10 solo flight are all that's required.

Again, with regard to these add-on ratings, there is often MUCH left out of the required knowledge by instructors who specialize in "add-on" training. There is not an additional knowledge test required, so the examiner is often the bearer of sad news when the very experienced airplane pilot cannot discus thermals, and all the other aspects of soaring flight.

But they and take-off and land!

Again stepping down from my soapbox.

Mike

Yup. No written. Soloed on Monday took commercial glider checkride on Friday. Commercial add on requires 20 solo flights. To get all the solos in before checkride I would leave lift land and take another tow. Examiner was a FAA inspector, so free checkride. I know I'm a bad person cause I didn't spend years running wings with an occasional flight to get my license.

Yup, took my Commercial flight test with an FAA examiner in the morning
and started hauling passengers that afternoon.Â* It was a good way to
build glider time until I bought my Mosquito and really learned to soar.

On 6/8/2018 5:33 AM, wrote:
On Thursday, June 7, 2018 at 8:40:12 PM UTC-4, SoaringXCellence wrote:
On Thursday, June 7, 2018 at 3:54:17 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Power transition. Soloed after 4 flights in a glider, flight #4 being a simulated rope break. All before lunch on my first day flying gliders.
Interestingly, the Add-on training to an existing certificate is not defined, except, that the pilot being trained is not a student pilot and therefore, by regulation, none of the "solo" requirements apply. The practical test proficiency and 10 solo flight are all that's required.

Again, with regard to these add-on ratings, there is often MUCH left out of the required knowledge by instructors who specialize in "add-on" training. There is not an additional knowledge test required, so the examiner is often the bearer of sad news when the very experienced airplane pilot cannot discus thermals, and all the other aspects of soaring flight.

But they and take-off and land!

Again stepping down from my soapbox.

Mike
Yup. No written. Soloed on Monday took commercial glider checkride on Friday. Commercial add on requires 20 solo flights. To get all the solos in before checkride I would leave lift land and take another tow. Examiner was a FAA inspector, so free checkride. I know I'm a bad person cause I didn't spend years running wings with an occasional flight to get my license.

--
Dan, 5J