2 civilian airliners down south of Moscow

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe...ash/index.html

Within 4 minutes of each other. Both took off from Domodedovo

Coincidence, or...?

Pete
-----------------------------------------------
(CNN) -- Two passenger planes have crashed in Russia Tuesday night, Russian
officials and a news organization said.
A passenger jet carrying 34 passengers and eight crew members in the Tula
region crashed about 160 kilometers (100 miles) south of Moscow, the
ministry reported.

A second plane went down about 160 kilometers (100 miles) from
Rostov-on-Don, in southern Russia, government-run news agency Ria Novosti
reported.

A ministry spokeswoman said she could only confirm that the second plane had
been lost to radar.

The first plane disappeared from radar at 10:56 p.m. (2:56 p.m. ET), a
ministry spokeswoman said.

The Tupolev-134 had taken off from Moscow's Domodedovo Airport and was en
route to Volgograd, in southern Russia.

The second plane, a Tupolev-154, disappeared at 11 p.m. (3 p.m. ET) after
having taken off from the same airport en route to Sochi in southern Russia,
Ria Novosti reported.

There was no immediate word how many people were aboard the second plane.

The Tupolev-154 is a standard medium-range airliner on domestic flights in
Russia, according to aviation websites.

"Pete" wrote in message
...
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe...ash/index.html

Within 4 minutes of each other. Both took off from Domodedovo

Right now they are saying that Russian sources report eyewitnesses seeing
the 134 explode in mid-air before coming down.


Coincidence, or...?

If the reports of a mid-air explosion for the 134 are correct, then I'd
imagine that losing two aircraft at about the same time, from the same
departure point, puts things a bit outside the likely coincidence realm.

Brooks

snip

Kevin Brooks wrote:

"Pete" wrote in message
...
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe...ash/index.html

Within 4 minutes of each other. Both took off from Domodedovo

Right now they are saying that Russian sources report eyewitnesses seeing
the 134 explode in mid-air before coming down.


Coincidence, or...?

If the reports of a mid-air explosion for the 134 are correct, then I'd
imagine that losing two aircraft at about the same time, from the same
departure point, puts things a bit outside the likely coincidence realm.

Agreed, although that's a might big if. The number of a/c which are reported
by eyewitnesses to have exploded/been on fire before crashing but which were
subsequently found not to have been, is rather large. Another possibility,
assuming no explosion, would be a fuel contamination problem at Domededovo.
If the Tu-154 which disappeared had tanks that were more full than the other
before being topped up, that might explain the longer delay before problems
surfaced, depending on the order in which fuel is drawn. OTOH, the lack of
any radio comms from either a/c would be considered highly suspicious with
western a/c -- considering the reported state of Russian civil aviation and
ATC I don't know that we can jump to the same conclusion in this case.

Guy

From: "Pete"


Coincidence, or...?
Pete

Coincidence.....or Richard Reid redux?

Here is some mo
Dave


BUCHALKI, Russia (Aug. 25) - A Russian airliner crashed and another apparently
broke up in the air almost simultaneously after they took off from the same
Moscow airport Tuesday night, officials said, raising fears of terrorism and
leaving little hope that any of at least 89 people on board could have
survived.

Authorities said rescuers found wreckage from a Tu-154 jet, which was carrying
at least 46 people, about nine hours after it issued a distress signal and
disappeared from radar screens over the Rostov region, some 600 miles south of
Moscow.

Officials made conflicting statements about whether the signal indicated a
hijacking or an SOS and the claims could not be independently confirmed.

At about the same time the Tu-154 jet disappeared, a Tu-134 airliner carrying
43 people crashed in the Tula region, about 125 miles south of Moscow,
officials said. The Emergency Situations Ministry later said that everybody on
board the Tu-134 was killed.

The planes had left Moscow's Domodedovo airport within 40 minutes of each other
Tuesday night and disappeared from radar screens about 11:00 p.m, officials
said.

President Vladimir Putin ordered an investigation by the nation's main
intelligence agency, the Federal Security Service, and security was tightened
at airports across the country.

Authorities have expressed concern that separatists in war-ravaged Chechnya
could carry out attacks linked to this Sunday's election to replace the
region's pro-Moscow president, who was killed by a bombing in May. Rebels have
been blamed for a series of terror strikes that have claimed hundreds of lives
in Russia in recent years.

Witnesses reported seeing an explosion before the first plane crashed and
suspicions of terrorist involvement were compounded when officials said the
Tu-154 airliner had issued a signal indicating the plane was being seized.

However, the Interfax news agency later quoted an unnamed Russian law
enforcement source as saying the signal was an SOS and no other signals were
sent.

Earlier, Interfax had quoted another source in Russia's ''power structures'' as
saying the signal indicating a seizure or hijacking came at 11:04 p.m., shortly
before the plane disappeared from radar. Emergency and Interior Ministry
sources in southern Russia, speaking on condition of anonymity, also told The
Associated Press a distress signal indicated an attack was activated.

Interfax reported that emergency workers spotted a fire in the Rostov region,
where the Tu-154 went missing. But rainy weather hampered the search efforts
and it took hours before any wreckage was found. A flight data recorder from
the plane was recovered, Emergency Situations Minister Sergei Shoigu said,
according to Interfax.

The regional Emergency Situations Ministry chief Viktor Shkareda told AP the
plane apparently broke up in the air and that wreckage was spread over an area
of some 25-30 miles. Body parts have also been found along with fragments of
the plane, Interfax quoted federal Emergency Situations Ministry as saying. It
said the parts were found near Gluboky, a village north of the regional capital
Rostov-on-Don.

Shkareda said 52 people were aboard the plane, while emergency officials in
Moscow put the number of passengers and crew at 46.

In the Tula region, rescuers found fragments of the Tu-134 jet's tail near the
village of Buchalki. Emergency Situations Ministry spokeswoman Marina Ryklina
said later there were no survivors.

At about the same time that the Tu-134 crashed, the Tu-154 lost contact with
flight controllers, Ryklina said. Interfax, citing Russia's Interstate Aviation
Committee, said 44 passengers and an unknown number of crew were abroad.

The Tu-154 took off from Moscow's Domodedovo airport at 9:35 p.m. Tuesday and
the other plane left 40 minutes later, state-run Rossiya television reported.

The Tu-154 belonged to the Russian airline Sibir, which said that the plane had
been in service since 1982.

Quoting unnamed aviation officials and security experts, Russian news agencies
said authorities were not ruling out terrorism and suspicions were heightened
by the fact that the two planes disappeared around the same time.

ITAR-Tass reported that the authorities believe the Tu-134 fell from an
altitude of 32,800 feet. It said the plane belonged to small regional airline
Volga-Aviaexpress and was being piloted by the company's director, and quoted
dispatchers as saying 34 passengers and seven crew were aboard. Ryklina put the
numbers at 35 and eight - a total of 43.

Interfax quoted a Domodedovo airport spokesman as saying no foreigners were on
the passenger lists for either plane.

Authorities said the Tu-134 was headed to the southern city of Volgograd, where
Volga-Aviaexpress is based, while the plane that crashed in the Rostov region
was flying to the Black Sea resort city of Sochi, where Putin is vacationing.

When Russia's U.N. Ambassador Andrey Denisov was told of the initial report of
two near-simultaneous crashes, he said, ''Now we have to see if there's
terrorism.''

In Washington, a U.S. official, speaking on condition of anonymity Tuesday
evening, said it was the understanding of American officials that the two
Russian planes disappeared within four minutes of each other, which ''in and of
itself is suspicious.''

AP-NY-08-25-04 0209EDT

Guy Alcala wrote:

Kevin Brooks wrote:


"Pete" wrote in message
. ..

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe...ash/index.html

Within 4 minutes of each other. Both took off from Domodedovo

Right now they are saying that Russian sources report eyewitnesses seeing
the 134 explode in mid-air before coming down.


Coincidence, or...?

If the reports of a mid-air explosion for the 134 are correct, then I'd
imagine that losing two aircraft at about the same time, from the same
departure point, puts things a bit outside the likely coincidence realm.


Agreed, although that's a might big if. The number of a/c which are reported
by eyewitnesses to have exploded/been on fire before crashing but which were
subsequently found not to have been, is rather large. Another possibility,
assuming no explosion, would be a fuel contamination problem at Domededovo.
If the Tu-154 which disappeared had tanks that were more full than the other
before being topped up, that might explain the longer delay before problems
surfaced, depending on the order in which fuel is drawn. OTOH, the lack of
any radio comms from either a/c would be considered highly suspicious with
western a/c -- considering the reported state of Russian civil aviation and
ATC I don't know that we can jump to the same conclusion in this case.

Guy



I would be surprised if it was fuel contamination - Domodedovo is now
Moscow's premier airport and Eastline, the owners, have spent millions
updating it.

I was there last Monday - see :-
http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/...004_day03.html

for a ramp tour and the facilities would put many western airports to
shame. It is as modern as they come.

That is not to say that fuel contamination is impossible - just unlikely
IMHO.

I was also surprised when I heard that the two a/c had departed from
Domodedovo - the security we experienced was very tight - and we were an
authorised party with prior permissions, passes etc.

I could have understood it if the flights had begun at Vnukovo, Bykovo
or even Sheremetyevo - but Domodedovo ?

Ken

They start from the same point, in Russian media poor fuel is one discussed
thing.
"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
...

"Pete" wrote in message
...
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe...ash/index.html

Within 4 minutes of each other. Both took off from Domodedovo

Right now they are saying that Russian sources report eyewitnesses seeing
the 134 explode in mid-air before coming down.


Coincidence, or...?

If the reports of a mid-air explosion for the 134 are correct, then I'd
imagine that losing two aircraft at about the same time, from the same
departure point, puts things a bit outside the likely coincidence realm.

Brooks

snip

Vello wrote:

They start from the same point, in Russian media poor fuel is one
discussed thing.

The obvious problem with that idea is that poor fuel would usually
just stop the engines, leaving them 30,000 feet or so of gliding
descent in which to report their difficulties and attempt power-off
landings.

It seems rather likely that some form of malice was at work and that
the technical investigations will merely discover whether hijacking
or bombs or some other form of sabotage was used.

"Robert Briggs" wrote in message
...
Vello wrote:

They start from the same point, in Russian media poor fuel is one
discussed thing.

The obvious problem with that idea is that poor fuel would usually
just stop the engines, leaving them 30,000 feet or so of gliding
descent in which to report their difficulties and attempt power-off
landings.


Gas turbines are pretty tolerant of fuel quality and
if this was the problem I'd expect a lot more than 2
aircraft to be affected.

Keith

My local paper this morning said the southernmost plane sent a hijack code
just before it went off radar.

--

B-58 Hustler History: http://members.cox.net/dschmidt1/
-

"Pete" wrote in message
...
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe...ash/index.html

Within 4 minutes of each other. Both took off from Domodedovo

Coincidence, or...?

Pete
-----------------------------------------------
(CNN) -- Two passenger planes have crashed in Russia Tuesday night,
Russian
officials and a news organization said.
A passenger jet carrying 34 passengers and eight crew members in the Tula
region crashed about 160 kilometers (100 miles) south of Moscow, the
ministry reported.

A second plane went down about 160 kilometers (100 miles) from
Rostov-on-Don, in southern Russia, government-run news agency Ria Novosti
reported.

A ministry spokeswoman said she could only confirm that the second plane
had
been lost to radar.

The first plane disappeared from radar at 10:56 p.m. (2:56 p.m. ET), a
ministry spokeswoman said.

The Tupolev-134 had taken off from Moscow's Domodedovo Airport and was en
route to Volgograd, in southern Russia.

The second plane, a Tupolev-154, disappeared at 11 p.m. (3 p.m. ET) after
having taken off from the same airport en route to Sochi in southern
Russia,
Ria Novosti reported.

There was no immediate word how many people were aboard the second plane.

The Tupolev-154 is a standard medium-range airliner on domestic flights in
Russia, according to aviation websites.

In article VP6Xc.135504$sh.122307@fed1read06, Darrell
wrote:

My local paper this morning said the southernmost plane sent a hijack code
just before it went off radar.

A report that has not been discounted by Russian authorities.

-john-

--
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Newave Communications http://www.johnweeks.com
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