Season Passes available from Soaring NV in Minden

At 07:24 20 December 2019, wrote:
it sounds simple, to ask the towpilot to punch a stopwatch, but there
are
o=
ften more urgent demands on the attention of the towpilot. I regret
that
so=
metimes I've realised that I forgot to press the button, with a
consequent
=
loss of accurate timing. I fix this by guesswork.



Not sure if this works over your side of pond but I use this for recording

my log - you do need to have flarm fitted and working

https://ktrax.kisstech.ch/logbook/?
id=FESHIEBRIDGE&tz=0&day=2019-12-
01&units=metric&shorthand=true&showtype=true&fstat us=all&ftype=a
ll&disp=cs&showcrew=true

I've got to say there's some real daydreamers on this thread with their head buried way deep in the sand.
I've operated a tow plane in Telluride Colorado.
I've paid the bills.
Capital costs.
Insurance.
Fuel.
Maintenance and inspections.
New tires.
General repairs.
Airport and tie down fees.
New engine when the old one got a oil leak and seized up.
Scheduled tow pilots.
Bought tow ropes and rings.
Etc
Etc
Etc
That $3750 early buy in price is a screaming deal if you ask me!
Include O2 fills and retrieves.
That is cheap! and its good for A Whole Year!
If I lived near Minden or planned on being there for any length of time I'd send in my check today with a big Thank You note attached.
Its SOO hard for a commercial operation to just break even much less take on the legal liability on top of No Money at the end of the year, we stopped doing it.
God Bless Soar Minden I say.

On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 8:30:53 AM UTC-8, Nick Kennedy wrote:
I've got to say there's some real daydreamers on this thread with their head buried way deep in the sand.
I've operated a tow plane in Telluride Colorado.
I've paid the bills.
Capital costs.
Insurance.
Fuel.
Maintenance and inspections.
New tires.
General repairs.
Airport and tie down fees.
New engine when the old one got a oil leak and seized up.
Scheduled tow pilots.
Bought tow ropes and rings.
Etc
Etc
Etc
That $3750 early buy in price is a screaming deal if you ask me!
Include O2 fills and retrieves.
That is cheap! and its good for A Whole Year!
If I lived near Minden or planned on being there for any length of time I'd send in my check today with a big Thank You note attached.
Its SOO hard for a commercial operation to just break even much less take on the legal liability on top of No Money at the end of the year, we stopped doing it.
God Bless Soar Minden I say.

I agree with Nick. Just my 2 cents worth.
My suggestion for those that want club glider costs (volunteer - FREE - staff) at Minden should give it a go.
However, since Minden is a regional full service airport with expensive hangar space and a ½ mile haul to runway 30 launch area, you might want to remember what a commercial operation has to add. Said spendy hangar / office lease (you aren’t working out of a tent off the dirt road), paid CFIG’s / ride pilots, tow pilots, line boys, receptionist, accounting, along with advertising, soaring merchandise inventory, and insurance just to name a few items. And lest we forget, the operational folks get paid (reasonable living wages) for being on site whether a soaring pilot (or ride) shows up or not. Anybody that has worked a commercial operation knows how bad the number of “no shows� are. There are methods to reduce this number, but they don’t go to zero. Those wonderful no show “individuals� not only don’t pay for their reserved services, but block another pilot from that scheduled time slot. The operation loses.
But go ahead. Start your club operation, find unpaid staff that will be there 5-7 days per week, 9 am to dark, from early spring to late fall.
Good luck with that.

Unlimited line service, O2 fills, tows & retrieves for $3750?Sounds like a great deal for a crew-less pilot like me. Might have to make an extended visit to Minden next season.

On Thursday, December 12, 2019 at 5:30:14 PM UTC-7, wrote:
https://soaringnv.com/

You can pay for tows on a per-tow basis, which will be billed on a per-minute basis, or you can purchase a VIP Season Tow Pass. Here are the details for both options:
Paying on a Per-Tow Basis
• Glider pilots are responsible for having their glider at the staging area, and for the hook-up and launch of their glider, unless line help is requested (see below). • A tow reservation is required ◦ A reservations will cost $25 ▪ Reservation is non-refundable ▪ Reservation cost DOES count toward the final cost of the tow ◦ Reservations can be made via e-mail: ◦ Reservations can be made via phone: 775-782-9595 ◦ Reservations can be rescheduled with sufficient advance notice • Line help can be requested, for an additional cost of $25. ◦ Please specify if you do or don’t want line help when you make your tow reservation. ◦ Line help covers transport of glider to the staging area for launch and from the staging area upon return, hook up, launch, and other staging activities. • Tows will be billed at a cost of $7.40 per minute ◦ Time starts when the tow plane and glider start rolling. ◦ Time stops as soon as the tow plane touch down for landing.
VIP Annual Tow Pass
• The VIP Annual Tow Pass is $4200 for the entire year. ◦ The pass can be purchased at any point during the year. ◦ If the pass is purchased in advance, during the months of November and December, for the coming year, the price will be discounted to $3750. • A tow reservation is required ◦ Season pass holders DO NOT pay a reservation fee
◦ Reservations can be made via e-mail: ◦ Reservations can be made via phone: 775-782-9595 ◦ Reservations can be rescheduled with sufficient advance notice • VIP Annual Tow Pass holders enjoy the following benefits at no additional cost: ◦ Unlimited tows ◦ Unlimited oxygen fills ◦ Unlimited land out retrievals ◦ Line service ◦ Wave Camp tickets
We aim to make your gliding experience as smooth and enjoyable as possible, and encourage any feedback. We’re here to help you soar, and we’re happiest when you’re soaring stress-free.

Want to Talk about the decline in Soaring?
Lets just look in my neighbor hood, Western Colorado, Utah, NV for instance..

Durango Soaring: Closed permanently
Salida Soaring: Closed Permanently
Hotchkiss Soaring: No Ops last year; looks like it over.
Telluride Soaring: Closed permanently

How about Parowan: No based tow plane- I hear this years ASA meet is going to be it, over. Got that from Dave Norwood, Paroair; Closed. no O2 nothing.

ElY NV? No based towplane anymore.

The common thread? All Commercial operations. As Charlie Romeo stated, good luck with getting a volunteer club up and running these days, Volunteers? Ferrgit about it. At the end of Telluride Soaring I couldn't get a towpilot at any price.
Its a sad situation and the SSA has put thousands of man hours in trying to change the decline, but at this point, AFAIK, No Joy. I have no suggestions.
Merry Christmas
Safe flying to all in 2020

Yes Nick its a sad state of affairs and with the preponderance of self launch sailplanes, its gonna get worse. As for. club participation/formation, its completely dependant upon the mentality/atmosphere engendered . Some clubs are flourishing, many of which are not located in premier soaring locations. But they have a friendly, all inclusive atmosphere which helps them not only maintain but grow.

wrote on 12/14/2019 10:27 AM:
Yes Nick its a sad state of affairs and with the preponderance of self launch
sailplanes, its gonna get worse. As for. club participation/formation, its
completely dependant upon the mentality/atmosphere engendered . Some clubs are
flourishing, many of which are not located in premier soaring locations. But
they have a friendly, all inclusive atmosphere which helps them not only
maintain but grow.

I think self-launching sailplanes are a symptom of the problem, not the cause.
Lots of motorglider pilots remain active in the SSA and in clubs as officials,
workers, tow pilots, and instructors. They get a motorglider for various reasons,
but a big one is they can't get tows when they want them. It sucks to tow everyone
up, then be sitting on the ground because there isn't another towpilot to launch
you, or sitting on the ground during the week when you could fly because you
aren't busy doing tows or instruction, but - no tow pilots.

As you pointed out, there used to be 3X as many glider pilots at Minden. What
happened to them? Obviously, 2X of them didn't get motorgliders, or there would
still be 3X as many glider pilots at Minden. They drifted away, the replacements
dwindled, and here we are.

I think motorgliders could help increase, or at least stop the loss of pilots, if
more of them were owned by partnerships. Gliders like the Silent Electro and
miniLAK FES offer good performance, easy operation, and relatively low cost if you
had 2 or 3 person partnerships. The motor gives the owners the ability to fly when
and where it's convenient for them, and more days are available because the motor
makes poor or unpredictable days usable.

Even you might enjoy being a partner in an FES! And when a tow and suitable
weather are available, hop into the 1-26 and dash off into the distance.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

True Eric, and I do not believe motor gliders are the problem, they’re, as you said, just the natural reaction for guys who want to fly when n where they want.

Man I do know the feeling of being the only guy around to do the towing on a good day and doing-my-duty watching the gang head out on good flights lol..

I would absolutely love to have a mini lak but I just can not pull the trigger on that kind of an expense, and I am addicted to playing this low performance one-class type racing/flying. Its interesting to note that we are seeing a bunch of guys jumping into this type of flying again, similar to me, leaving the high dollar-high performance side to jump into the fun and level non machine based competition that is 1-26 flying. Its even driving up the prices on these little birds.

On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 1:51:07 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
wrote on 12/14/2019 10:27 AM:
Yes Nick its a sad state of affairs and with the preponderance of self launch
sailplanes, its gonna get worse. As for. club participation/formation, its
completely dependant upon the mentality/atmosphere engendered . Some clubs are
flourishing, many of which are not located in premier soaring locations.. But
they have a friendly, all inclusive atmosphere which helps them not only
maintain but grow.

I think self-launching sailplanes are a symptom of the problem, not the cause.
Lots of motorglider pilots remain active in the SSA and in clubs as officials,
workers, tow pilots, and instructors. They get a motorglider for various reasons,
but a big one is they can't get tows when they want them. It sucks to tow everyone
up, then be sitting on the ground because there isn't another towpilot to launch
you, or sitting on the ground during the week when you could fly because you
aren't busy doing tows or instruction, but - no tow pilots.

As you pointed out, there used to be 3X as many glider pilots at Minden. What
happened to them? Obviously, 2X of them didn't get motorgliders, or there would
still be 3X as many glider pilots at Minden. They drifted away, the replacements
dwindled, and here we are.

I think motorgliders could help increase, or at least stop the loss of pilots, if
more of them were owned by partnerships. Gliders like the Silent Electro and
miniLAK FES offer good performance, easy operation, and relatively low cost if you
had 2 or 3 person partnerships. The motor gives the owners the ability to fly when
and where it's convenient for them, and more days are available because the motor
makes poor or unpredictable days usable.

Even you might enjoy being a partner in an FES! And when a tow and suitable
weather are available, hop into the 1-26 and dash off into the distance.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

I partnered once with two other guys in a sailboat. It was not a perfect solution. I was often sitting on land when I wanted/could have been out sailing. I eventually bought them out. Yes, it was a good introduction, but it comes with a whole lot of considerations, including the personalities and cordiality of the other members in the group.

As we all know, the population of glider pilots is slowly "aging out". Why? Well, things ain't as affordable as they once were, for one. With the prices of these new high-performance machines about the same as a small house, there's no wonder why. What normal average working person coming out of college with a mountain of educational debt, or someone who just started a family can afford that? How many families now have to have two earners just to make ends meet? How many young people are getting into soaring now? At these prices, you could only do it if you come from a family with "money". Gone are the days when you could go to the airport and wash planes to pay for flying lessons. That economy is long gone.

Go ahead--keep thinking that your operation is "worth it". It may well be. But this is the very thing that is contributing to dwindling numbers in our sport. The lower the numbers of participants, the harder it is to find volunteers, and the more of a burden it puts on those that do step up to offer their services for free. I'll do my own ground handling, by myself if needed, to save $25.

We need to grow the sport from the bottom. We need to get kids back in the air. We need to show them that this is something that CAN be done on next to nothing. Be cause it can be done, if we decide to set it up that way. But it will take a significant commitment from those with the ability, to build the momentum to critical mass. One way to cut costs is to use ground launches--auto tows, reverse auto tows, winch launches (if you can set out the capital for a decent winch). That will SIGNIFICANTLY cut the cost of soaring. And if you have a lot of folks in in the club, there's bound to be more people hanging out around the club that can help with the ground handling. I'm sorry, but this topic is dear to my heart. My personal situation is that I've come from "nothing", and while I do have some limited means now, I still cringe at the prices charged by some operations, to the point I will take my business elsewhere. If we want to keep the sport alive and prevent it from dying, we need to start doing things differently.

On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 8:59:47 PM UTC-8, John Foster wrote:
On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 1:51:07 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
wrote on 12/14/2019 10:27 AM:
Yes Nick its a sad state of affairs and with the preponderance of self launch
sailplanes, its gonna get worse. As for. club participation/formation, its
completely dependant upon the mentality/atmosphere engendered . Some clubs are
flourishing, many of which are not located in premier soaring locations. But
they have a friendly, all inclusive atmosphere which helps them not only
maintain but grow.

I think self-launching sailplanes are a symptom of the problem, not the cause.
Lots of motorglider pilots remain active in the SSA and in clubs as officials,
workers, tow pilots, and instructors. They get a motorglider for various reasons,
but a big one is they can't get tows when they want them. It sucks to tow everyone
up, then be sitting on the ground because there isn't another towpilot to launch
you, or sitting on the ground during the week when you could fly because you
aren't busy doing tows or instruction, but - no tow pilots.

As you pointed out, there used to be 3X as many glider pilots at Minden.. What
happened to them? Obviously, 2X of them didn't get motorgliders, or there would
still be 3X as many glider pilots at Minden. They drifted away, the replacements
dwindled, and here we are.

I think motorgliders could help increase, or at least stop the loss of pilots, if
more of them were owned by partnerships. Gliders like the Silent Electro and
miniLAK FES offer good performance, easy operation, and relatively low cost if you
had 2 or 3 person partnerships. The motor gives the owners the ability to fly when
and where it's convenient for them, and more days are available because the motor
makes poor or unpredictable days usable.

Even you might enjoy being a partner in an FES! And when a tow and suitable
weather are available, hop into the 1-26 and dash off into the distance..

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

I partnered once with two other guys in a sailboat. It was not a perfect solution. I was often sitting on land when I wanted/could have been out sailing. I eventually bought them out. Yes, it was a good introduction, but it comes with a whole lot of considerations, including the personalities and cordiality of the other members in the group.

As we all know, the population of glider pilots is slowly "aging out". Why? Well, things ain't as affordable as they once were, for one. With the prices of these new high-performance machines about the same as a small house, there's no wonder why. What normal average working person coming out of college with a mountain of educational debt, or someone who just started a family can afford that? How many families now have to have two earners just to make ends meet? How many young people are getting into soaring now? At these prices, you could only do it if you come from a family with "money". Gone are the days when you could go to the airport and wash planes to pay for flying lessons. That economy is long gone.

Go ahead--keep thinking that your operation is "worth it". It may well be. But this is the very thing that is contributing to dwindling numbers in our sport. The lower the numbers of participants, the harder it is to find volunteers, and the more of a burden it puts on those that do step up to offer their services for free. I'll do my own ground handling, by myself if needed, to save $25.

We need to grow the sport from the bottom. We need to get kids back in the air. We need to show them that this is something that CAN be done on next to nothing. Be cause it can be done, if we decide to set it up that way.. But it will take a significant commitment from those with the ability, to build the momentum to critical mass. One way to cut costs is to use ground launches--auto tows, reverse auto tows, winch launches (if you can set out the capital for a decent winch). That will SIGNIFICANTLY cut the cost of soaring. And if you have a lot of folks in in the club, there's bound to be more people hanging out around the club that can help with the ground handling. I'm sorry, but this topic is dear to my heart. My personal situation is that I've come from "nothing", and while I do have some limited means now, I still cringe at the prices charged by some operations, to the point I will take my business elsewhere. If we want to keep the sport alive and prevent it from dying, we need to start doing things differently.

No question that a syndicate can significantly reduce costs. Just having one partner will cut your costs in half. If you get a two-place, even your tow charges are half. I, too, started out with more time than money, and appreciate the cost barriers to flying. Kids can start out by virtually flying using Condor flight simulator. Costs about $100 with a joystick. And you can fly anywhere in the world. Clubs are still the most viable option to keeping costs down. Blaming high costs for declining participation is just a convenient whipping boy. Rounds of golf played per year are dropping, too - and you can play a round for less than the cost of a tow (some places for $10-$20).

Tom