Talk me out of this...

sounds like that engine is about due a overhaul.
I dont know what an engine costs for a 152, but you may want to check on
that so you know about how much your going to have to invest in the new
engine.

Paul Folbrecht wrote:

Me: 7x hour recently licenced PP-SEL.

Plane: '79 C152 being sold by my FBO for $19,200. TT is around 8000 (I
think), SMOH is 2050. Annual just done. This looks like an Ok deal to
me when comparing to like models, but the clincher is that they are
throwing in one year of hangering as well. That makes it look like a
pretty nice deal.

Ideally I'd like to go into this with a partner but I haven't been able
to find one and I do honestly think they'll unload this aircraft before
too long. Not sure if the price or terms are negotiable but I would
like to try to squeeze a second year of hangaring out of them.

Concerns:

- Engine has only a few hundred hours till TBO. I know that means
dropping another $10K or so within a few years.
- Plane has been abused by students (including me) for 25 years now (the
FBO bought it new).
- The only A&Ps I know that I could have take a look at it work for this
FBO.

Pros:

- The plane flies a lot; I know that's good for the engine.
- The FBO is reputable and I know they do their maintenance and take
care of squawks.

I'm torn in general on renting vs. owning right now. I anticipate
flying about 100 hours/year- by my calculations that's right around the
break-even point. However, knowing you're always going to have an
aircraft available to fly, even on short notice, is something you can't
put a direct dollar figure on.

I know this issue in general has been beat to death more than anything
else here, and I've read a lot of the old threads, but any and all
comments welcome. I'm much newer at all this than most of you here.

~Paul

Well, a new 235 is about $20K, and I'd thought a major overhaul was
about half that, but apparantly I was wrong given the number of people
in this thread who're telling me I am.

Jeff wrote:

sounds like that engine is about due a overhaul.
I dont know what an engine costs for a 152, but you may want to check on
that so you know about how much your going to have to invest in the new
engine.

On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 02:10:04 GMT, Paul Folbrecht
wrote:

Well, a new 235 is about $20K, and I'd thought a major overhaul was
about half that, but apparantly I was wrong given the number of people
in this thread who're telling me I am.

Jeff wrote:

sounds like that engine is about due a overhaul.
I dont know what an engine costs for a 152, but you may want to check on
that so you know about how much your going to have to invest in the new
engine.

Factoryengines.com lists O-235s for 15.2k, 17.9k, and 22.5k (overhaul,
remanufactured, and new respectively). Plus, you will have install
costs and have accessories to overhaul or replace. You could hit $20k
easily for an installed overhauled engine.

-Nathan

So that $15.2K is for a remanufactured engine or to remanufacture _your_
engine?? Cause I thought doing the latter (tearing it down and
replacing most of the parts) was the 'usual' method, and I thought (had
been told) that around $10K for everything for a 235 was about right.
(No, not told by the FBO that's selling the plane.)

Factoryengines.com lists O-235s for 15.2k, 17.9k, and 22.5k (overhaul,
remanufactured, and new respectively). Plus, you will have install
costs and have accessories to overhaul or replace. You could hit $20k
easily for an installed overhauled engine.

-Nathan

On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 02:43:34 GMT, Paul Folbrecht
wrote:

So that $15.2K is for a remanufactured engine or to remanufacture _your_
engine?? Cause I thought doing the latter (tearing it down and
replacing most of the parts) was the 'usual' method, and I thought (had
been told) that around $10K for everything for a 235 was about right.
(No, not told by the FBO that's selling the plane.)

Factoryengines.com lists O-235s for 15.2k, 17.9k, and 22.5k (overhaul,
remanufactured, and new respectively). Plus, you will have install
costs and have accessories to overhaul or replace. You could hit $20k
easily for an installed overhauled engine.

Factoryengines usually has pretty good prices, but I was surprised
about the $15k for a O-235 overhaul. I have a O-360 in my Cherokee,
and its overhaul is only $13.8k.

Regarding the differences between overhauls - I'm not an expert at
this by any means, but here's my take...

Overhauled engine: Engine parts are replaced or reworked as necessary
to be within overhaul limits. You need to be careful about what type
of overhaul is specified. There are two main kinds of overhauls,
service limits, and new limits. Service limits are the absolute
minimums as specified by the engine manufacturer (a bad idea in my
opinion). There are also overhauls to new limits, ie the components
of the engine have the same tolerances as a new engine. Either way,
the engine comes out with the same logbook, and total time is not
reset. It is however 0 hours since major overhaul.

Blueprinted engines: There are speciality shops that match/balance
components to provide a smoother and more powerful engine. These
typically cost more than a regular overhaul, and perhaps more than a
remanufactured engine. Regardless, the engine will not be zero timed.
It is essentially an overhaul to super-specifications.

Remanufactured. Engine components are reworked/replaced to new
limits. Engine is issued a new logbook and is 0 TT / 0 SMOH. Many
question the value of the reman besides having a zerotimed logbook.

New engine: This the easy one. It is brand new from Lycoming. O TT,
0 TSMOH.

Avweb has a good article on engine overhauls:
http://www.avweb.com/news/maint/182826-1.html

-Nathan

Paul Folbrecht wrote:

So that $15.2K is for a remanufactured engine or to remanufacture _your_
engine?? Cause I thought doing the latter (tearing it down and
replacing most of the parts) was the 'usual' method, and I thought (had
been told) that around $10K for everything for a 235 was about right.

That outfit will sell you an overhauled engine for $15.2K. You will have to
remove yours, install theirs, and send them yours as a "core". You re-use all the
old peripherals, such as the carb, alternator, etc.. There are lots of extra
goodies that you should replace at this time, such as the cooling baffle material.

Now, an overhauled engine is one in which the engine is disassembled, every part
is checked to make sure it meets the specs for *return to service*, and the engine
is put back together with any part that doesn't meet those specs replaced with one
that is *serviceable*. A remanufactured engine is one in which every part meets the
specs for a *new* part, not just a *serviceable* one. A new engine is just that.

What you're describing is generally referred to as a "field overhaul". There are
pluses and minuses to doing it this way. If the mech is good and you opt for
replacing unserviceable parts with new ones, you can wind up with a better engine
than swapping for a major shop overhauled engine, but if you do that, it'll likely
cost you in the 15K range anyway.

George Patterson
Love, n.: A form of temporary insanity afflicting the young. It is curable
either by marriage or by removal of the afflicted from the circumstances
under which he incurred the condition. It is sometimes fatal, but more
often to the physician than to the patient.

you know, I once heard a guy who said he saw a 152 actually hover over the
runway.
kinda windy day, the guy cut power to land and the plane kinda just hovered
there.

on windy days, there is this 152 up at my airport, the thing looks like a
kite flapping around on its tiedowns.

Paul Folbrecht wrote:

Me: 7x hour recently licenced PP-SEL.

Plane: '79 C152 being sold by my FBO for $19,200. TT is around 8000 (I
think), SMOH is 2050. Annual just done. This looks like an Ok deal to
me when comparing to like models, but the clincher is that they are
throwing in one year of hangering as well. That makes it look like a
pretty nice deal.

Ideally I'd like to go into this with a partner but I haven't been able
to find one and I do honestly think they'll unload this aircraft before
too long. Not sure if the price or terms are negotiable but I would
like to try to squeeze a second year of hangaring out of them.

Concerns:

- Engine has only a few hundred hours till TBO. I know that means
dropping another $10K or so within a few years.
- Plane has been abused by students (including me) for 25 years now (the
FBO bought it new).
- The only A&Ps I know that I could have take a look at it work for this
FBO.

Pros:

- The plane flies a lot; I know that's good for the engine.
- The FBO is reputable and I know they do their maintenance and take
care of squawks.

I'm torn in general on renting vs. owning right now. I anticipate
flying about 100 hours/year- by my calculations that's right around the
break-even point. However, knowing you're always going to have an
aircraft available to fly, even on short notice, is something you can't
put a direct dollar figure on.

I know this issue in general has been beat to death more than anything
else here, and I've read a lot of the old threads, but any and all
comments welcome. I'm much newer at all this than most of you here.

~Paul

Ya, ya, ya, they're slow! :-) (I felt like I was damn-near friggin
hovering on the way back into Milwaukee today from Appleton, with winds
190 around 45 knots. GPS said 65 knots groundspeed tho.)

Jeff wrote:

you know, I once heard a guy who said he saw a 152 actually hover over the
runway.
kinda windy day, the guy cut power to land and the plane kinda just hovered
there.

on windy days, there is this 152 up at my airport, the thing looks like a
kite flapping around on its tiedowns.

65 kts GS ....
talk about a long trip
isnt that about the sped you rotate at ?

Paul Folbrecht wrote:

Ya, ya, ya, they're slow! :-) (I felt like I was damn-near friggin
hovering on the way back into Milwaukee today from Appleton, with winds
190 around 45 knots. GPS said 65 knots groundspeed tho.)

Jeff wrote:

you know, I once heard a guy who said he saw a 152 actually hover over the
runway.
kinda windy day, the guy cut power to land and the plane kinda just hovered
there.

on windy days, there is this 152 up at my airport, the thing looks like a
kite flapping around on its tiedowns.

You ain't kidding about the winds. They were from 250 when I was planning at
around 3 o'clock - by 3:30 they'd spun round to 200. Statrted double
checking my planning when it was obvious we were heading northwest instead
of northeast. 138 kts out - 78 kts back. Ouch.



"Paul Folbrecht" wrote in message
hlink.net...
Ya, ya, ya, they're slow! :-) (I felt like I was damn-near friggin
hovering on the way back into Milwaukee today from Appleton, with winds
190 around 45 knots. GPS said 65 knots groundspeed tho.)

Jeff wrote:

you know, I once heard a guy who said he saw a 152 actually hover over
the
runway.
kinda windy day, the guy cut power to land and the plane kinda just
hovered
there.

on windy days, there is this 152 up at my airport, the thing looks like
a
kite flapping around on its tiedowns.