Pre-buy Inspection

Maybe you should only post when sober then... The original post states
"They just finished up an annual inspection on it." :-)


Lynne Miller wrote:

Truthfully, a good pre-buy is actually an annual inspection. I would
worry about a $500 pre-buy. Unless you truly tear into the aircraft,
you don't know what you're getting into. If it's at all close by,
perhaps you could work out a deal to somehow pro-rate the annual
inspection, and just get it done. That way, you will at least have the
peace of mind to know exactly the shape the aircraft is in.

As an aside, I am quite drunk right now. :-) It's fun to hang out at
home, drink beers, and just relax.

Lynne

Jon Kraus wrote in message . ..

My new partner and I are looking at a 1975 Mooney M20C. It is a nicely
upgraded IFR plane with a 400 hour O-360 engine. It is a rather high
time airplane (7000) hours and the price reflects this fact. It is being
sold by the owner of the FBO we fly out of for one of his friends. They
just finished up an annual inspection on it.

My IFR instructor has owned Mooneys in the past and even had the M20C
for years. He suggested that we fly the plane to Byerly Aviation in
Peoria IL (a little over an hour flight from Indianapolis) and have them
do the pre-buy. He said it would probably cost in the $500.00 range. My
partner and I think it is a good idea too. We are both buying our first
plane and think the money would be well spent.

One of the cylinders has a compression of 62 while the others are in the
70's. This concerns me even though it is within tolerances. Of course we
would hate to buy something that needed immediate major engine work. The
plane has not flown much for the past 2 years so I am wondering if after
flying the thing a while if the compression might come back some
(probably wishful thinking I know).

I am interested in opinions or experiences in first plane purchases.
Experience with Byerly Aviation. Or comments on the engine situation I
described. Thanks!!

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
Student aircraft purchaser

Lynne Miller wrote:

Truthfully, a good pre-buy is actually an annual inspection. I would
worry about a $500 pre-buy.

I wouldn't. My last annual inspection cost less than $500.

George Patterson
If you want to know God's opinion of money, just look at the people
he gives it to.

That's about the furthest thing from the truth I've ever seen in these
newsgroups. A prebuy is a DOZEN times harder than an annual inspection. All an
annual inspection tells you is that nothing on the airplane is worn past service
limits at the time of the inspection.

An annual doesn't tell you that the oil hasn't been changed for two hundred
hours. It doesn't tell you that the tires are down to within a hundredth of an
inch of wear limits. It doesn't tell you that the brakes have less than 10%
service life. It doesn't tell you that the battery has about two tugs left in
it before pooping out completely. Shall I go on?

I don't do prebuys for two reasons. One is that a good prebuy takes me the
better part of 25 hours to do, and I can't charge that kind of money to somebody
who may or may not be the owner of that airplane someday. Two is that I can
actually miss something, by simple oversight or by opinion, that the new owner
will rip me a new one when they have to have that item repaired or replaced.

It just ain't worth it. And I sure as HELL wouldn't consider doing one for
somebody with Kraus' attitude.

Jim



(Lynne Miller)
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

-Truthfully, a good pre-buy is actually an annual inspection.


Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

Jim,
ROFLMFAO.. You don't even know me so your comment about my attitude is
laughable. As far as the pre-buy inspection goes the folks that do them
tell me that they take not anywhere near 25 hours to do. Maybe you are
ripping people off (25 + hours is ridiculous) and that is why you aren't
getting any pre-buy business. But then again I don't know you either so
who's to say right? :-)

I would think that a shop that deals with a specific aircraft day in and
day out would be able to point to the "problem" (expensive) areas of the
aircraft in a reasonable amount of time. At least that is what they tell
me. I think Byerly is a reputable firm and if they told me they can do
it in 8 hours I believe them. It is of course your prerogative to
disagree. Huggs and Kisses

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
Student airplane purchaser

Jim Weir wrote:
That's about the furthest thing from the truth I've ever seen in these
newsgroups. A prebuy is a DOZEN times harder than an annual inspection. All an
annual inspection tells you is that nothing on the airplane is worn past service
limits at the time of the inspection.

An annual doesn't tell you that the oil hasn't been changed for two hundred
hours. It doesn't tell you that the tires are down to within a hundredth of an
inch of wear limits. It doesn't tell you that the brakes have less than 10%
service life. It doesn't tell you that the battery has about two tugs left in
it before pooping out completely. Shall I go on?

I don't do prebuys for two reasons. One is that a good prebuy takes me the
better part of 25 hours to do, and I can't charge that kind of money to somebody
who may or may not be the owner of that airplane someday. Two is that I can
actually miss something, by simple oversight or by opinion, that the new owner
will rip me a new one when they have to have that item repaired or replaced.

It just ain't worth it. And I sure as HELL wouldn't consider doing one for
somebody with Kraus' attitude.

Jim



(Lynne Miller)
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

-Truthfully, a good pre-buy is actually an annual inspection.


Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

"if they told me they can do
it in 8 hours I believe them.

Jon Kraus

Dream on. You are not very mechanically inclined, are you?
--
Jim in NC

Probably more then you are ... you dream on Douggy.... :-)

Morgans wrote:
"if they told me they can do

it in 8 hours I believe them.


Jon Kraus


Dream on. You are not very mechanically inclined, are you?

There really is no such thing as "a standard pre-buy". A pre buy can
consist of anything you authorize the mechanic to do. First do a
lookup on who that N number is registered to. Are you really dealing
with the owner? What I would then suggest is you check the plane out
as completely as YOU can. Upholstry, paint, hail damage, how if flies,
do the radios, lights, gyros etc work. Make a written list. Get the
logs. See if they have all the annauls (did they skip any).
Transponder, pitot check. Take the logs to a mechanic. Have him check
the gear and the engine and have HIM look at the logs and AD's. Is
there any damage history? How is the repair?

An O360 Mooney is going to run dollarwise:
FIXED COSTS
$?? Hangar or tie down ($500 to $3000)
$1000-2000 insurance depending on pilot, Call Avemco and get a quote
$1500 annual (just the annual part, not the repairs)

HOURLY COSTS
$25 fuel and oil
$10 maintenance (this one is the bigest unknown)
$10 engine reserve


Jon Kraus wrote in message .. .
Jim,
ROFLMFAO.. You don't even know me so your comment about my attitude is
laughable. As far as the pre-buy inspection goes the folks that do them
tell me that they take not anywhere near 25 hours to do. Maybe you are
ripping people off (25 + hours is ridiculous) and that is why you aren't
getting any pre-buy business. But then again I don't know you either so
who's to say right? :-)

I would think that a shop that deals with a specific aircraft day in and
day out would be able to point to the "problem" (expensive) areas of the
aircraft in a reasonable amount of time. At least that is what they tell
me. I think Byerly is a reputable firm and if they told me they can do
it in 8 hours I believe them. It is of course your prerogative to
disagree. Huggs and Kisses

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
Student airplane purchaser

Jim Weir wrote:
That's about the furthest thing from the truth I've ever seen in these
newsgroups. A prebuy is a DOZEN times harder than an annual inspection. All an
annual inspection tells you is that nothing on the airplane is worn past service
limits at the time of the inspection.

An annual doesn't tell you that the oil hasn't been changed for two hundred
hours. It doesn't tell you that the tires are down to within a hundredth of an
inch of wear limits. It doesn't tell you that the brakes have less than 10%
service life. It doesn't tell you that the battery has about two tugs left in
it before pooping out completely. Shall I go on?

I don't do prebuys for two reasons. One is that a good prebuy takes me the
better part of 25 hours to do, and I can't charge that kind of money to somebody
who may or may not be the owner of that airplane someday. Two is that I can
actually miss something, by simple oversight or by opinion, that the new owner
will rip me a new one when they have to have that item repaired or replaced.

It just ain't worth it. And I sure as HELL wouldn't consider doing one for
somebody with Kraus' attitude.

Jim



(Lynne Miller)
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

-Truthfully, a good pre-buy is actually an annual inspection.


Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

I respectfully disagree. A prebuy inspection is what **I** am comfortable with.
And, as I said, I don't do them, because my comfort level is way to hell and
gone off the top end. I want that person buying that airplane to know every
little wear pattern on the airplane, in stark contrast to my annuals which
certify that no part is beyond wear or airworthiness limits.

I stick to my guns. An annual is 2 hours (more or less) of pure inspection. A
prebuy to my standards is 25 hours or so; that's my 12:1 ratio I talked about.
That's why I don't do them for anybody but myself.

Jim


(Doug)
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

-There really is no such thing as "a standard pre-buy". A pre buy can
-consist of anything you authorize the mechanic to do.

Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

Jon Kraus wrote:

As far as the pre-buy inspection goes the folks that do them
tell me that they take not anywhere near 25 hours to do.

An A&P with experience with Maules can do an annual inspection of my aircraft in
something like 18 hours. That includes all the "grunt work" that I normally do
myself. I don't find it hard to believe that someone who's really trying to do a good
job of finding every problem they reasonably can would take a few hours longer.

George Patterson
If you want to know God's opinion of money, just look at the people
he gives it to.

Jim Weir wrote in message . ..
That's about the furthest thing from the truth I've ever seen in these
newsgroups. A prebuy is a DOZEN times harder than an annual inspection. All an
annual inspection tells you is that nothing on the airplane is worn past service
limits at the time of the inspection.

snipped for length, not content

Heh. Having done waaay mor than fair share of pre-buy's, the best
definition of a pre-buy was the one my old boss (FBO owner, ATP-rated,
designated flight examiner, line pilot, AP/IA, new/used broker) gave
to my wife.

I was in the next hangar "inspecting" with the seller, the seller's
broker, the prospective buyer, and the prospective buyer's broker.

"Where's my husband?"

"He's next door taking it in the ass."

Pre-buy's suck, there is no formal definition under the FAR, and to do
a proper one (as you indicate) takes an incredible amount of time,
depending on the age/condition of the plane & maintenance records
being inspected.

Another "selling" broker's comment-

"I've never had anyone take two days to do a pre-buy on a single"

My response-

"Don't come back"

Have had quite a few where the aircraft, by definition, was
unairworthy (9 times out of 10 due to paperwork issues). As a
technician/inspector, my only "legal" recourse is of course to inform
the pilot/operator, and walk away.

My all-time favorites are ships recently brought back into the States.
Plus the ones that have had recent blank-check periodic inspections
from so-called "premier" make/model specific maintenance facilities
and are absolute pieces of (insert excrement of choice). Bonanza's and
Mooney's tend to fall into that category, sorry to say.

Regards;

TC