Aviation is too expensive

(Michael) wrote in message om...

Let's all get real. Supply and demand and economies of scale?
snip

Well, economies of scale are a large factor. The airplanes that
roll out of the factories today are all basically hand crafted.
Unlike the automated, roboticized car assmbly lines. If Cessna could
utilize automation and robotics like Ford or GM, their planes would
carry a much lower price tag (and probably have better initial
quality). Unfortunately, they don't sell enough planes to justify the
vast investment in those technologies, while Ford/GM can happily
spread the costs over millions of units.

No, let's be real. The real enemy is our government - specifically
the FAA. They're the reason we're struggling to keep 40 year old
technology going rather than getting new stuff at a fraction of the
cost.

Also true. It takes a huge investment and lots of time to get a
product through the bureaucratic nightmare that is the FAA. But
again, the cost of that struggle is spread over a very few units,
thereby bumping up the price.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)


Michael

"H.J." writes:

What's wrong with general aviation?

An old crapper Piper from 1978 costs over $50,000. A nice one cost
$180,000.

Boats are the same, as far as I've heard. Houses are worse: run-down
houses in our neighbourhood are now selling for over double what we
paid for our (good-condition) house in the mid 1990's.


All the best,


David

--
David Megginson, , http://www.megginson.com/

For the most part the cost of flying is basic economics, supply vs. demand.

Not too many people want a 1978 VW, you cannot say the same about any 1978
single engine plane.

Why inspect the VW, if it quits running you may have to talk a walk some
where, different story with the airplane.

Maybe $2.65/gal for 100LL is reasonable, cannot say I have seen it sold
anywhere but airports here in the US. Some third world countries are
probably still burning it in cars. If that is the case, the oil companies
are making a specialty product just for airplanes.

I do not know a lot about Piper parts and their cost, but the simple 36"
piece of fiberglass was probably built by hand, and they probably are
probably only selling a couple of them a year so there is no economy of
scale.

Considering the conditions an airplane sparkplug has to operate in, it is
probably worth more than $1.99. Look what an airplane engine has to do
compared to a car engine. Try running your car from idle to full throttle,
hold at full throttle under load for extended time periods and repeat. Check
out some of the experimental flyers who with some degree of success use
automotive engines in their planes, very few car engines can handle the
task. Plus, Wal-Mart sells a lot more sparkplugs that your aviation parts
supplier.

I wear cheap digital watches, like the 1978 VW when they quit (and they
always do), it is no big deal and I throw them away. Sometimes the most
difficult product to produce is a simple reliable one.

Avionics could be made a lot cheaper, but if you can sell it for $1,999 why
sell it for $199. You may say that they could sell more units and make up
the difference in volume, but any business thats been around for a while
knows what the demand for their product will be at a given price.

Flying is a very expensive hobby, but a lot of other hobbies are expensive,
you make your choices, if you want to do something you make it happen.. I do
not know many pilots that I would call money bags. Most have made economic
trade offs in other areas of their life that enable them to fly. Some live
in more modest homes than they would if they didn't fly, they don't take
many vacations, they drive the same cars for years. They put flying on hold
till after the kids are out of college and have more free cash. Everyone
knew how much it cost when they started, nobody changed the rules in the
middle of the game.

I have quit flying, right now I cannot afford it and my other expensive
hobbies, amateur radio, and scuba diving. Just shelled out $2000.00 today
for a 4 day diving trip, what should it have cost? I can go to Vegas for 4
nights for $800.00

Will PP-AEL
"H.J." wrote in message
...
What's wrong with general aviation?

An old crapper Piper from 1978 costs over $50,000. A nice one cost
$180,000.
These are relic machines with instrument panel lights and loose door
handles
worse than any yugo ever had. I'd say an old Cherokee from 1978 should be
worth about as much as a V.W. from the same time period: $2500. Especially
considering the absurd yearly expenses required to keep one legal. If a
v.w.
bug had to have an annual inspection that costs what a GA aircraft
inspection does, nobody would pay a cent for one.

A hiker's GPS runs $199 while an aviation version costs $1,999.

Why does an aviation spark plug cost over $20??? It's just a plug! It
should
cost $1.99 for a good one! A far more complex product with dozens of
precision parts - a digital watch - can go for as little as $5.99 at
Walmart.

Why does the 36" fiberglass pan of a Warrior (the chin part where the carb
intake is on the nose) cost 5,000 freaking dollars???? It is only glass
and
glue, after all. There is no structural support or anything like that
involved.

Fuel is $2.65 for self serve 100LL! Does it have pure gold flakes in it?
Why
isnt it $1.50?

Maybe modern pilots are just money bags who dont care about costs.

"JWS" wrote in message
. ..
For the most part the cost of flying is basic economics, supply vs.
demand.

Not too many people want a 1978 VW, you cannot say the same about any 1978
single engine plane.

Why inspect the VW, if it quits running you may have to talk a walk some
where, different story with the airplane.

Maybe $2.65/gal for 100LL is reasonable, cannot say I have seen it sold
anywhere but airports here in the US. Some third world countries are
probably still burning it in cars. If that is the case, the oil companies
are making a specialty product just for airplanes.

What are the taxes on AvGas and Jet-A? It's around 38-45 cents on automobile
gas (The producers get about 9-15 cents, the parasites get four times as
much).

I do not know a lot about Piper parts and their cost, but the simple 36"
piece of fiberglass was probably built by hand, and they probably are
probably only selling a couple of them a year so there is no economy of
scale.

BINGO!! Cigar to JWS!!

On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 02:13:10 GMT, "JWS"
wrote:


Considering the conditions an airplane sparkplug has to operate in, it is
probably worth more than $1.99. Look what an airplane engine has to do
compared to a car engine. Try running your car from idle to full throttle,
hold at full throttle under load for extended time periods and repeat. Check
out some of the experimental flyers who with some degree of success use
automotive engines in their planes, very few car engines can handle the
task. Plus, Wal-Mart sells a lot more sparkplugs that your aviation parts
supplier.

The auto conversions fly just like their more expensive cousins, using
the same manifold pressures and use ordinary auto spark plugs.

I should post the article I have that describes the development of an
ordinary Chevy V-6. The number of hours the engines spend at full
throttle and the torture they go through is by FAR more severe than
the FAA's mandated testing for new aircraft engines. Here's one small
excerpt:

"Thermal cycle tests are run to define engine capability under cold
weather condition. We run the engine at full throttle at 4000 RPM,
bring it down to idle, stop it, switch the coolant valves to drain the
hot coolant, pump the chilled coolant from the chiller until the metal
temperature stabilizes at 0 degrees F. Frost forms on the outside of
the block, as the cold coolant rushes into the engine. When it
stabilizes at 0 F, we motor the engine, start it, come to full
throttle at 4400 RPM, the valves switch and the coolant temperature
starts to climb. It climbs back up to 260 degrees F. It takes 10 -11
minutes to complete one cycle. The engine must pass 600 cycles
without any sign of failure. We typically run 1200 cycles and a probe
test will run 1600 cycles. That's a (sic) excellent gasket killer
test. Head gaskets are the first to fail because of the rapid
expansion and contraction."

Chevy is only typical, all automakers butcher their engines like this
during development. They have to, if they produce a dog or
maintenance hog, their reputation will take a long time to rebuild and
money, lots of it, will be lost.

Corky Scott

Corky Scott wrote:

The auto conversions fly just like their more expensive cousins, using
the same manifold pressures and use ordinary auto spark plugs.

I should post the article I have that describes the development of an
ordinary Chevy V-6. The number of hours the engines spend at full
throttle and the torture they go through is by FAR more severe than
the FAA's mandated testing for new aircraft engines.

Attach a 6 foot propeller to the crank and everything changes. That introduces
stresses and vibrations that auto engines never dreamed of.


--
Chris Woodhouse
Oklahoma City

"They that can give up essential liberty
to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania

"Rosspilot" wrote in message
...
You raise some interesting points . . . answer is really just because
that's
what the market will bear.

Those who sell *anything* to pilots know that we love it so much we will
pay
whatever it costs to keep doing it, because the only form of protest is to
stop
paying . . . and stop flying.

I can't do that.

Kinda like cocaine, huh? :~)

"Rosspilot" wrote in message
...
You raise some interesting points . . . answer is really just because
that's
what the market will bear.

Those who sell *anything* to pilots know that we love it so much we will
pay
whatever it costs to keep doing it, because the only form of protest is to
stop
paying . . . and stop flying.

I can't do that.

Kinda like cocaine, huh? :~)


In more ways than one. You go up, then you come down. You are out a big pile
of money and have nothing to show for it but the experience.

And you can't wait to do it again. G


www.Rosspilot.com

"Rosspilot" wrote in message
...
"Rosspilot" wrote in message
...
You raise some interesting points . . . answer is really just because
that's
what the market will bear.

Those who sell *anything* to pilots know that we love it so much we
will
pay
whatever it costs to keep doing it, because the only form of protest is
to
stop
paying . . . and stop flying.

I can't do that.

Kinda like cocaine, huh? :~)


In more ways than one. You go up, then you come down. You are out a big
pile
of money and have nothing to show for it but the experience.

And you can't wait to do it again. G

Sounds like an amusement ride in Las Vegas that my grandkids went on.
I don't remember the name, but I do remember the parent's shelling out $15
for a 0:01:40 experience. Let's see, what kind of airplane could I rent for
that $540 per hour....?
Relatively speaking, a C-172 is pretty cheap.

ospam (Rosspilot) wrote in message ...
"Rosspilot" wrote in message
...
You raise some interesting points . . . answer is really just because
that's what the market will bear.
Those who sell *anything* to pilots know that we love it so much we
will pay
whatever it costs to keep doing it, because the only form of protest is to
stop paying . . . and stop flying. I can't do that.

Kinda like cocaine, huh? :~)

In more ways than one. You go up, then you come down. You are out a big pile of money and have nothing to show for it but the experience.
And you can't wait to do it again. G

www.Rosspilot.com

This is actually a pretty good analogy, unfortunately. Supply and
DEMAND, and the economies (or lack thereof) due to size of the market
(vs cars, for example). The liability argument is facile and naive.
If it were true, cars would be more expensive than airplanes. You all
know those statistics about safety of air travel versus cars. (Yeah,
I'm a lawyer; but I don't handle airplane crashes (not very many) but
as for car wrecks...