FAR:Safety Pilot & High Performance/Complex?

Ron is entirely correct on this. I have heard this many times during
pilot examiner school in OKC. The policy statements explained to me
from AFS-640 are very clear about this. You must be totally qualified
and legal to fly the bird by yourself in order to log PIC as a safety
pilot. (medical, category and class, flight review, and proper 61.31
endorsements) The regulations themselves are clear: In order to BE
the PIC and be the safety pilot, (and thats the only way a non-CFI,
non-manipulator can log PIC time in single pilot airplanes as a safety
pilot), you must meet ALL the prerequisites.


On Fri, 8 Aug 2003 11:47:33 -0400, "Ron Natalie"
wrote:


"C J Campbell" wrote in message
A strict reading of these two regulations would indicate that a private
pilot holding a certificated for single engine land airplanes may log PIC
for the time he is acting as safety pilot in a complex or high performance
airplane whether he is signed off for those airplanes or not.

No a strict reading doesn't say that. He may be a safety pilot, as that requires
only ratings. He can not log safety pilot time as PIC time as he can not legally
be PIC.

"Bill Zaleski" wrote in message
...
| Ron is entirely correct on this. I have heard this many times during
| pilot examiner school in OKC. The policy statements explained to me
| from AFS-640 are very clear about this. You must be totally qualified
| and legal to fly the bird by yourself in order to log PIC as a safety
| pilot. (medical, category and class, flight review, and proper 61.31
| endorsements) The regulations themselves are clear: In order to BE
| the PIC and be the safety pilot, (and thats the only way a non-CFI,
| non-manipulator can log PIC time in single pilot airplanes as a safety
| pilot), you must meet ALL the prerequisites.
|

No dice. Policy statements and wishful thinking are not regulations. Show me
a regulation, please.

No a strict reading doesn't say that. He may be a safety pilot, as that
requires
only ratings. He can not log safety pilot time as PIC time as he can not
legally
be PIC.


Right. Which brings me back to a question I had earlier. Is there ever a
circumstance that a pilot can log PIC time when he is not certified,
endorsed or current in that aircraft? I can't think of a case but maybe I'm
overlooking something.
--
Jim Burns III

Remove "nospam" to reply

"Jim" wrote in message news
Right. Which brings me back to a question I had earlier. Is there ever a
circumstance that a pilot can log PIC time when he is not certified,
endorsed or current in that aircraft? I can't think of a case but maybe I'm
overlooking something.
--
Sure there is. There are three ways to log PIC time (for those not CFIs or ATPs).

1. Sole occupant of the aircraft.
2. Sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which you are rated.
3. Pilot in command of a multipilot operation (under the regs/type certificate)

#1 doesn't require you to be rated in the aircraft. Your instructor can sign you off to go
solo on any pilot certificate (student or otherwise).

#2 doesn't require currency or endorsement requirements to be met provided there is
someone else aboard who is actually PIC.

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
m...
|
| "C J Campbell" wrote in message
| A strict reading of these two regulations would indicate that a private
| pilot holding a certificated for single engine land airplanes may log
PIC
| for the time he is acting as safety pilot in a complex or high
performance
| airplane whether he is signed off for those airplanes or not.
|
| No a strict reading doesn't say that. He may be a safety pilot, as that
requires
| only ratings. He can not log safety pilot time as PIC time as he can not
legally
| be PIC.

Where does it say that in the regulations?

"C J Campbell" wrote in message ...

| No a strict reading doesn't say that. He may be a safety pilot, as that
requires
| only ratings. He can not log safety pilot time as PIC time as he can not
legally
| be PIC.

Where does it say that in the regulations?

61.51 (e)(1)(iii) ... is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft requring more
than one pilot...

When acting as pilot in command, you must meet the other requirements
of being pilot in command:

61.31(e)(1) ...no person may act as pilot in command of a complex airplane unless...

There is a difference between (1) serving as pilot in command, (2) acting as
pilot in command, and (3) logging pilot in command. The last two apply to
part 91 operations. Logging pic and acting as pic are not related.

Simon
AWP-FSDO-SDL

There is no regulatory requirement that you be able to act as PIC in order
to log PIC under any circumstances.
[...(^-1)]
A strict reading of these two [quoted below] regulations would indicate that a
private
pilot holding a certificated for single engine land airplanes may log PIC
for the time he is acting as safety pilot in a complex or high performance
airplane whether he is signed off for those airplanes or not.


In this case, I think not.


(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A recreational, private, or
commercial pilot may log pilot-in- command time only for that flight time
during which that person --

(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the
pilot is rated;


Well, this doesn't apply to a safety pilot, unless the flight is already going
badly.


(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or


Doesn't apply to a safety pilot. I'll let you figure out why.


(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an
aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type
certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is
conducted.


So we're left with this. In this case the safety pilot must be able to act as
PIC. He or she can't do this unless they have the endorsements appropriate to
the aircraft (i.e. if high performance, tailwheel, or whatever).

So, you can't log PIC as a safety pilot unless you ARE PIC, and have the
(necessary) endorsements to act as PIC.

Jose



(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...
There is no regulatory requirement that you be able to act as PIC....
....
(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an
aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type
certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is
conducted.

What part of that is not clear to you? To log PIC as a safety pilot
(required crewmember) you must be "acting" as PIC and acting as PIC requires
a myriad of requirements, but in this case I refer you to 61.31 where the
phrase "act as PIC" is used extensively.

You keep saying "point me to the regulation" when you already quoted the
regulation.

Mat

--
Matthew Waugh
Comm. SEL MEL, CFI-AI
http://home.nc.rr.com/mwaugh/learn2fly/index.htm

You can act as safety pilot without having the high performance or complex
endorsements. All you need is to have at least a PPC and be rated in the
a/c. (91.109(b)(1)).


Here is a wrinkle what if you are rated in category and class, but not
current? Ex. you have not landed in class and cat lately. Can you still
act as safetly pilot?