FAA Investigates American Flyers

Roy

On many occasions I find that the seller sticks on the cost of getting
their money from the credit card companies.

Others just eat this service charge or adjust their price to include.
Normally runs a few % points but in long run adds up to a lot of money
especially if they are pricing with minimum profit (low markup).

American Express seems to be the most expensive and you will find many
firms not accepting AE credit cards for this reason..

Big John


On 4 Nov 2003 11:38:52 -0500, (Roy Smith) wrote:

Maule Driver wrote:
Everything about American Flyers smelled like "produce revenue while
providing the absolute mininum in service and value".

I only have one experience with AF. They took over the flight school
ops from Westair at White Plains a couple of years ago (I'm not sure
why, but I suspect what was going on was the airport squezed Westair
on rent when they tore down Westair's old building and put up a fancy
new one). I took a couple of hours of in their simulator.

When I paid my bill, I was astounded when they tacked on a few extra
bucks to cover credit card transaction fees! It wasn't a whole lot of
money, but I've never heard of anybody ever doing anything like that.
I didn't even think it was legal.

When I was not progressing on my instrument rating at Sierra Academy, I went
to American Flyers to see if I would benefit from a different approach (so
to speak).

The instructor did not have a hood for me to wear, yet she claimed to be
giving me instrument instruction. We flew several approaches. She
demonstrated complete lack of understanding on how to fly an NDB approach.
She talked so much that we missed several radio calls. She did not know that
when flying a localizer approach that the CDI will work no matter what the
OBS is set to; she thought the CDI was broken!

I expected better of a CFII, so I stayed with SA and finished there. Since
SA was milking me (big time), I switched to AllATPs for the rest of my
ratings. AllATPs did exactly what was promised, no more and no less -- which
meant a lot of time spent on self study. AllATPs got me to the point where I
could pass the check ride, but that was about it. There is something to be
said for this approach, but the graduate has to understand that he has a lot
of work ahead of him. I believe that the depth of instrument training at SA
continues to benefit me to this day. The practical experience of AllATPs
long, multi-day cross country multi-engine training is equally valuable.

If I could construct a custom course, it would be a combination of SA's
ground schools with ATP's flying experience.

I was an employee of AF in Ft Lauderdale. I also trained their, on
their dime, for my IFR. I found the training was good, but you had to
insist on working with a bare minimum of instructors. Otherwise you
would never see the same face twice. Their flight record keeping was
thorough. But I was there long enough to see how they handled refunds
to students. This was especially clear in the case of what was called
"academy students". That was a program where students would pay for
training in a class, as opposed to individual training. The student
would get a break on the hourly cost of ground instruction and maybe
some fees. If a refund was required, they would go back and bill the
student at the individual rate and take every opportunity to tack on
fees of every description. Then they would point out that it would take
time to get a refund. It took as much time as the student allowed. If
you refused to take any answer about your refund but "cut a check
today", that's what happened. If you played along with their excuses,
your delay would take as long as it took for the student to reach "cut a
check today."

I left after a "Director", fancy name for salesman, told me that I had
to administer a computerized knowledge to a student when the student had
improper authorization for that test. As I recall, the foreign student
required an FAA knowledge test specifically for foreign students, while
his CFII has signed him off for a plain old IFR written. When the
Director told me I should just administer the test and let him worry
about it. I objected. He told me "you're just an intern, that's not
your decision. I left, and was fired.

I graduated Embry-Riddle just before starting at Flyers, and Flyers was
the only place I had seen that charged a higher hourly rate for a 172
than Riddle. The AF 172s were almost all high-time leasebacks. The
CFIs were paid under $10 per hour of work (mid 1990s) and a bit more for
flight hours, maybe $12. But they would use CFIs to paint halls, run
errands, wash the boss' car, shuttle students, and then lecture new CFIs
about maintaining a professional image and attitude.

I knew some really top notch people in that company, most were
short-term employees. I believe I went to company orientation with Dave
Huser, mentioned in the story.

--

Scott
--------
"So far, fewer troops have been killed by hostile fire since the end of
major combat in Iraq than civilians were murdered in Washington, D.C.,
last year (239 deaths in Iraq compared to 262 murders in D.C.). How many
years has it been since we declared the end of major U.S. combat
operations against Marion Barry's regime? How long before we just give
up and pull out of that hellish quagmire known as Washington, D.C.?" Ann
Coulter
http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2003/110503.htm

"tscottme" wrote in message
...

I was an employee of AF in Ft Lauderdale. I also trained their, on
their dime, for my IFR. I found the training was good, but you had to
insist on working with a bare minimum of instructors. Otherwise you
would never see the same face twice. Their flight record keeping was
thorough.

The issue isn't keeping records of flights, but the granting of ratings and
licenses to people that are not competent.

AF in Ft lauderdale is where I had my experiences too. I could 'smell' the
setup as you described it after spending 30 mins in the lobby. Plenty of
fine CFIs there but AF has little to do with that.

Anyone who asks me gets a "go somewhere else"
"tscottme" wrote in message
...

I was an employee of AF in Ft Lauderdale. I also trained their, on
their dime, for my IFR. I found the training was good, but you had to
insist on working with a bare minimum of instructors. Otherwise you
would never see the same face twice. Their flight record keeping was
thorough. But I was there long enough to see how they handled refunds
to students. This was especially clear in the case of what was called
"academy students". That was a program where students would pay for
training in a class, as opposed to individual training. The student
would get a break on the hourly cost of ground instruction and maybe
some fees. If a refund was required, they would go back and bill the
student at the individual rate and take every opportunity to tack on
fees of every description. Then they would point out that it would take
time to get a refund. It took as much time as the student allowed. If
you refused to take any answer about your refund but "cut a check
today", that's what happened. If you played along with their excuses,
your delay would take as long as it took for the student to reach "cut a
check today."

I left after a "Director", fancy name for salesman, told me that I had
to administer a computerized knowledge to a student when the student had
improper authorization for that test. As I recall, the foreign student
required an FAA knowledge test specifically for foreign students, while
his CFII has signed him off for a plain old IFR written. When the
Director told me I should just administer the test and let him worry
about it. I objected. He told me "you're just an intern, that's not
your decision. I left, and was fired.

I graduated Embry-Riddle just before starting at Flyers, and Flyers was
the only place I had seen that charged a higher hourly rate for a 172
than Riddle. The AF 172s were almost all high-time leasebacks. The
CFIs were paid under $10 per hour of work (mid 1990s) and a bit more for
flight hours, maybe $12. But they would use CFIs to paint halls, run
errands, wash the boss' car, shuttle students, and then lecture new CFIs
about maintaining a professional image and attitude.

I knew some really top notch people in that company, most were
short-term employees. I believe I went to company orientation with Dave
Huser, mentioned in the story.

--

Scott
--------
"So far, fewer troops have been killed by hostile fire since the end of
major combat in Iraq than civilians were murdered in Washington, D.C.,
last year (239 deaths in Iraq compared to 262 murders in D.C.). How many
years has it been since we declared the end of major U.S. combat
operations against Marion Barry's regime? How long before we just give
up and pull out of that hellish quagmire known as Washington, D.C.?" Ann
Coulter
http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2003/110503.htm