Stealth bird

glass can be seen, its the square corners (wing fuse joints) and flat
surfaces (wing underside in a turn and vert fin) also reflect radar energy..
does not have to be metal..

BT

"Big John" wrote in message
...
Dave

Your words brought back memories. TNX. Should have remembered.

I still think homebuilders can build a Stealth bird.

Some shielding like in the 117 might be an easy way to reduce return
from areas that are not 'glass'.

Big John


On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 17:06:41 -0500, Dave Butler
wrote:

Big John wrote:

I'm not up to speed on current traffic control radar and if they both
'skin paint' and look at transponder returns?.

What you're calling 'skin paint' is what ATC calls "primary radar". The
ATC
system that processes transponder returns is called "secondary radar",
also
known as ATCRBS (Air Traffic Control Radar Beacon System).

Both kinds of radar operate simultaneously and using antennas that rotate
together.

Occasionally you'll hear that either primary or secondary radar is out of
service at a particular facility. If secondary radar is out of service
they have
to use some other means of identifying the primary radar returns. If
primary
radar is out of service, they can see only transponder-equipped aircraft.

Remove SHIRT to reply directly.
Dave

Remember that props are usually metal, as well as gear legs. Also, altitude
and direction relative to the radar site also will determine the quality of
a primary return.
"Big John" wrote in message
...
Dave

Your words brought back memories. TNX. Should have remembered.

I still think homebuilders can build a Stealth bird.

Some shielding like in the 117 might be an easy way to reduce return
from areas that are not 'glass'.

Big John


On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 17:06:41 -0500, Dave Butler
wrote:

Big John wrote:

I'm not up to speed on current traffic control radar and if they both
'skin paint' and look at transponder returns?.

What you're calling 'skin paint' is what ATC calls "primary radar". The
ATC
system that processes transponder returns is called "secondary radar",
also
known as ATCRBS (Air Traffic Control Radar Beacon System).

Both kinds of radar operate simultaneously and using antennas that rotate
together.

Occasionally you'll hear that either primary or secondary radar is out of
service at a particular facility. If secondary radar is out of service
they have
to use some other means of identifying the primary radar returns. If
primary
radar is out of service, they can see only transponder-equipped aircraft.

Remove SHIRT to reply directly.
Dave

Used to fly to Mexico about 20 years back in a fabric covered
Tri-Pacer without a transponder. Once, we came back into the US,
cleared customs at Bisbee, AZ and continued on to Albuquerque, NM. We
were met there by customs again, wanting to count passengers. Our leg
to Albuquerque had been very slow with a headwind and they apparently
were not sure that we had not slipped back into Mexico.
--
Gene Seibel
Hangar 131 - http://pad39a.com/gene/plane.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.



Just some ramblings on stealth.

When the Air Defense Command was in high gear with Radars all over the
States and over lapping coverage, we used 'skin paint' (vs beacon/IFF
or transponder) to located and track aircraft (we didn't think the
Russians would come in squawking for us). The FAA always used
beacon/transponder to make a large blip on their scope for traffic
control purposes.

With that background, what does FAA use today? If they do not use
'skin paint' why can't the 'glass' birds with a wooden prop, turn off
their transponder and fly through all the restricted areas unseen?

I'm not up to speed on current traffic control radar and if they both
'skin paint' and look at transponder returns?.

Anyone want to comment on this thread and expand?

Big John

In article , Big John
wrote:

With that background, what does FAA use today? If they do not use
'skin paint' why can't the 'glass' birds with a wooden prop, turn off
their transponder and fly through all the restricted areas unseen?

at least some restricted areas augment the FAA radars with
primary radars that are better suited to the air defense role
than the FAA radars.

--
Bob Noel

"Bob Noel" wrote in message
...
In article , Big John
wrote:

With that background, what does FAA use today? If they do not use
'skin paint' why can't the 'glass' birds with a wooden prop, turn off
their transponder and fly through all the restricted areas unseen?

at least some restricted areas augment the FAA radars with
primary radars that are better suited to the air defense role
than the FAA radars.

--
Bob Noel

They do?? mmmmmm

BT

"Big John" wrote in message
...

Just some ramblings on stealth.

When the Air Defense Command was in high gear with Radars all over the
States and over lapping coverage, we used 'skin paint' (vs beacon/IFF
or transponder) to located and track aircraft (we didn't think the
Russians would come in squawking for us). The FAA always used
beacon/transponder to make a large blip on their scope for traffic
control purposes.


Not always. Radar was used by ATC for some years prior to Project Beacon in
the early sixties. Transponders didn't become the rule rather than the
exception for a few more years.



With that background, what does FAA use today? If they do not use
'skin paint' why can't the 'glass' birds with a wooden prop, turn off
their transponder and fly through all the restricted areas unseen?

I'm not up to speed on current traffic control radar and if they both
'skin paint' and look at transponder returns?.

Anyone want to comment on this thread and expand?


ATC primary radar isn't all that good, especially in the Centers. Some
radar sites have beacon interrogators only, no primary radar at all. As you
say, for ATC purposes aircraft want to be seen and the vast majority have
transponders. Broadband radar provided better primary targets, but a lot of
clutter as well.

With that background, what does FAA use today? If they do not use
'skin paint' why can't the 'glass' birds with a wooden prop, turn off
their transponder and fly through all the restricted areas unseen?

I live in a Class D airspace. I wanted to see my house a bit closer
than 2600 ft, so I got on the handheld and asked for permission to
come down below pattern altitude. Duly granted. Then it transpired
that the controller couldn't see me. I told him my location, altitude,
and that I was circling. He told me to report at 800 feet, which I
did. But he didn't replied, and I'm not sure that he actually saw me
on the radar at any time.

J-3 Cub with metal prop.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put CUB in subject line)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

I live in a Class D airspace.

Class D? Radar?

"John Harlow" wrote in message
...

Class D? Radar?


Some have their own, some have a scope driven by their parent TRACON, some
have none.

"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...

I live in a Class D airspace. I wanted to see my house a bit closer
than 2600 ft, so I got on the handheld and asked for permission to
come down below pattern altitude. Duly granted. Then it transpired
that the controller couldn't see me. I told him my location, altitude,
and that I was circling. He told me to report at 800 feet, which I
did. But he didn't replied, and I'm not sure that he actually saw me
on the radar at any time.


He may not have radar at all.