Chicago Shoreline TFR

This is ludicrous. I live in the far, far western Chicago suburbs and I
couldn't tell you where Olive Park is. And the C172 I fly out of DPA doesn't
have a GPS or a DME. From the air I couldn't find Ashland or Irving Park
Roads. Unless I fly low enough to read street signs.

Does anyone else think references to the EISENHOWER, DAN RYAN and KENNEDY
expressways are silly since aviation charts don't have these references? I
had to pull out the State Farm Road Atlas to find references to these names.
(Also found Olive Park. It's between the Water Filtration Plant and the
beach just north of Navy Pier.)

Once again Chicago is an embarrassment. Even if there was a creditable
threat, the size and description of this TFR does very little if anything to
lessen the risk. I'm sorry. All this has been said before. It's just
frustrating.

Chuck Gerlach


"BTIZ" wrote in message
news:N0IGb.40580$m83.4399@fed1read01...
it's to keep the light aircraft out of range of the stormtroopers mayorD
had
posted along the city boundaries... how'd that movie go?? "Escape from
NY"

BT

"Ben Smith" wrote in message
...
Nice! Hopefully anyone travelling this popular route checked NOTAMS
before
launching today.

3/2133 (#2) IL.. FLIGHT RESTRICTIONS CHICAGO, IL. EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY
UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE, PURSUANT TO 14 CFR SECTION 99.7, SPECIAL SECURITY
INSTRUCTIONS, EXCEPT FOR MEDEVAC, LAW ENFORCEMENT, RESCUE/RECOVERY,
EMERGENCY EVACUATION AND FIRE FIGHTING OPERATIONS, ALL VFR FLIGHT
OPERATIONS
ARE PROHIBITED WITHIN AN AREA BEGINNING ON THE LAKE MICHIGAN SHORE LINE
(415232N/ 873658W OR THE CHICAGO O''HARE /ORD/ VOR/DME 115.4 DEGREE
RADIAL/
14.6 DME), THEN WEST VIA THE EISENHOWER EXPRESSWAY TO THE INTER- SECTION
OF
THE DAN RYAN EXPRESSWAY (415232N/873844W OR THE ORD 118 DEGREE RADIAL AT
13.4 DME) THEN NORTH VIA THE DAN RYAN/ KENNEDY TO THE INTERSECTION OF
ASHLAND AVENUE (415454N/874004W OR ORD 110.2 DEGREE RADIAL AT 11.5 DME)
THEN
NORTH VIA ASHLAND TO THE INTER- SECTION OF IRVING PARK ROAD
(415716N/874010W
OR ORD 098.6 DEGREE RADIAL AT 10.7 DME) THEN EAST VIA IRVING PARK TO
LAKE
MICHIGAN SHORELINE (415718/873828W OR ORD 097.4 DEGREE RADIAL AT 12 DME)
THEN SOUTH VIA THE SHORELINE EXCLUDING OLIVE PARK AND NAVY PIER TO THE
POINT
OF BEGINNING AT AND BELOW 3000 FEET AGL UNLESS AUTHORIZED BY ATC. AL
PEREZ,
773-838-0677, IS THE POINT OF CONTACT. ELGIN TRACON, (847) 608-5654, IS
THE
FAA COORDINATION FACILITY. WIE UNTIL UFN

--
Ben
C-172 - N13258 @ 87Y

Does anyone else think references to the EISENHOWER, DAN RYAN and KENNEDY
expressways are silly since aviation charts don't have these references?

Yes, but this is apparently not uncommon. Flying out of Meigs shortly
before it was bulldozed, talking to (I think) Chicago Approach, they
referenced the "Eisenhower Expressway" in their instructions to us. (As in
"don't fly west of the Ike")

When we responded that we had no idea where that was, they gave us vectors.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 15:27:07 GMT, Jay Honeck wrote:

Yes, but this is apparently not uncommon. Flying out of Meigs shortly
before it was bulldozed, talking to (I think) Chicago Approach, they
referenced the "Eisenhower Expressway" in their instructions to us. (As in
"don't fly west of the Ike")

When we responded that we had no idea where that was, they gave us vectors.

I found it very common when flying in the US that everybody and his
neighbor expected me to be familiar with the area - in *every* area I've
been to.
In Phoenix: "fly over this and that golf course ..."
In Lost Wages: "fly directly to this and that casino ..."
In Grand Canyon Intl: "fly over the third tree abeam the railroad-bridge to
Winslow, ya know! ..."

and so on ...

#m
--
http://www.declareyourself.com/fyr_candidates.php
http://www.subterrane.com/bush.shtml

In Phoenix: "fly over this and that golf course ..."
In Lost Wages: "fly directly to this and that casino ..."
In Grand Canyon Intl: "fly over the third tree abeam the railroad-bridge
to
Winslow, ya know! ..."

LOL, isn't that the truth. Flying into DuPage once (at night) I was told to
fly direct to the airport, and report crossing 'The River'. I had a pax
with me who was able to see what we thought was a river, though. If I
were by myself, I would have asked for a different reporting point..

On Fri, 26 Dec 2003, Jay Honeck wrote:

Does anyone else think references to the EISENHOWER, DAN RYAN and KENNEDY
expressways are silly since aviation charts don't have these references?

Yes, but this is apparently not uncommon. Flying out of Meigs shortly
before it was bulldozed, talking to (I think) Chicago Approach, they
referenced the "Eisenhower Expressway" in their instructions to us. (As in
"don't fly west of the Ike")

When we responded that we had no idea where that was, they gave us vectors.

I've told this story before, but it bears repeating... I was flying in
Vancouver Terminal airspace earlier in 2003, had just contacted Terminal,
and was told to head for "Something" Beach. I had a quick look at my VTA
chart - no "Something" Beach that I could see at a quick look. Lots of
other flagged VFR Reporting Points, though... Did the the 'unfamiliar'
thing, got a vector - and then realized that Something Beach was on the
chart - in tiny print, right NEXT to a fully marked VFR Reporting Point
with a different name... Growl mutter mutter...

Brian - PP-ASEL/Night -

On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 05:47:24 GMT, "Chuck Gerlach"
wrote:


Does anyone else think references to the EISENHOWER, DAN RYAN and KENNEDY
expressways are silly since aviation charts don't have these references? I
had to pull out the State Farm Road Atlas to find references to these names.

I think the references themselves are remarkably provincial. As a
visitor to Chicago I just plain *couldn't tell* what the radio traffic
reports were about, even though I knew the expressway numbers around
the area.

And you forgot the EDENS.

Rob :-)

I think its one thing to have reporting points that are confusing and quite
another to use these points in a TFR NOTAM. You can ask for help when in
the air and given a "unique" reporting point. Who do you ask for
clarification of a NOTAM? Unless you are talking to a FSS with local
Chicago knowledge, you are out of luck.

Another interesting point is how does ATC know where the TFR is? Does ATC
have streets on their scopes?

It's all silly and an encrediable waste. It doesn't make me or anyone else
any safer. Another example of perception being more important than reality.

Chuck Gerlach

"Rob Perkins" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 05:47:24 GMT, "Chuck Gerlach"
wrote:


Does anyone else think references to the EISENHOWER, DAN RYAN and KENNEDY
expressways are silly since aviation charts don't have these references?
I
had to pull out the State Farm Road Atlas to find references to these
names.

I think the references themselves are remarkably provincial. As a
visitor to Chicago I just plain *couldn't tell* what the radio traffic
reports were about, even though I knew the expressway numbers around
the area.

And you forgot the EDENS.

Rob :-)

"Chuck Gerlach" wrote in message
nk.net...
I think its one thing to have reporting points that are confusing and
quite
another to use these points in a TFR NOTAM. You can ask for help when in
the air and given a "unique" reporting point. Who do you ask for
clarification of a NOTAM? Unless you are talking to a FSS with local
Chicago knowledge, you are out of luck.

Another interesting point is how does ATC know where the TFR is? Does ATC
have streets on their scopes?

It's all silly and an encrediable waste. It doesn't make me or anyone
else
any safer. Another example of perception being more important than
reality.

Chuck Gerlach

Daley isn't much when it comes to common sense or intelligence.

"Ben Smith" wrote in message
...
Nice! Hopefully anyone travelling this popular route checked NOTAMS
before
launching today.

Like the Chicago TFR a couple of years ago, this one lets you fly within
2000' of the Sears Tower, just as you could do in the absence of the TFR!
And unlike when Meigs was around, you don't even have to talk to ATC.

--Gary

3/2133 (#2) IL.. FLIGHT RESTRICTIONS CHICAGO, IL. EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY
UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE, PURSUANT TO 14 CFR SECTION 99.7, SPECIAL SECURITY
INSTRUCTIONS, EXCEPT FOR MEDEVAC, LAW ENFORCEMENT, RESCUE/RECOVERY,
EMERGENCY EVACUATION AND FIRE FIGHTING OPERATIONS, ALL VFR FLIGHT
OPERATIONS
ARE PROHIBITED WITHIN AN AREA BEGINNING ON THE LAKE MICHIGAN SHORE LINE
(415232N/ 873658W OR THE CHICAGO O''HARE /ORD/ VOR/DME 115.4 DEGREE
RADIAL/
14.6 DME), THEN WEST VIA THE EISENHOWER EXPRESSWAY TO THE INTER- SECTION
OF
THE DAN RYAN EXPRESSWAY (415232N/873844W OR THE ORD 118 DEGREE RADIAL AT
13.4 DME) THEN NORTH VIA THE DAN RYAN/ KENNEDY TO THE INTERSECTION OF
ASHLAND AVENUE (415454N/874004W OR ORD 110.2 DEGREE RADIAL AT 11.5 DME)
THEN
NORTH VIA ASHLAND TO THE INTER- SECTION OF IRVING PARK ROAD
(415716N/874010W
OR ORD 098.6 DEGREE RADIAL AT 10.7 DME) THEN EAST VIA IRVING PARK TO LAKE
MICHIGAN SHORELINE (415718/873828W OR ORD 097.4 DEGREE RADIAL AT 12 DME)
THEN SOUTH VIA THE SHORELINE EXCLUDING OLIVE PARK AND NAVY PIER TO THE
POINT
OF BEGINNING AT AND BELOW 3000 FEET AGL UNLESS AUTHORIZED BY ATC. AL
PEREZ,
773-838-0677, IS THE POINT OF CONTACT. ELGIN TRACON, (847) 608-5654, IS
THE
FAA COORDINATION FACILITY. WIE UNTIL UFN

--
Ben
C-172 - N13258 @ 87Y