Who's flying out of the higest elev airport?

BINGO!! Understanding the QFE question requires the understanding that all
anticipated destinations are below the limit parameters of the Kollsman
window....which is correct enough....but like most regulations, the way it's
written is just plain nuts!!!!
Why the hell the powers that be would put in a QFE option without explaining
that it's tied directly to the Kollsman parameters on the altimeters is
beyond me. I must know a hundred pilots who think it's an available option
anywhere!!! :-))

It's funny about things like this. I've been reading everything I can find
on the use of QFE, even that American Airlines had tried having their first
officers monitoring a QFE altimeter with the Captain using a standard
altimeter setting on final approaches, (which I understand is no longer the
case BTW) and there is absolutely nothing out there that specifies the
limiting parameter for QFE due to Kollsman range limits on the instrument
for airports outside the instrument parameters.
It's amazing that the governing agencies who write this stuff just assume
that sooner or later all of us will just figure out that only airports under
3K feet are eligible for the QFE option. Interesting!!!
I have to admit, it's basic enough, but for someone reading the regulations,
the assumption is that a QFE setting is available at all anticipated
destinations. I haven't found a reference anywhere that explains QFE as
available only within the Kollsman range. Understanding the regulation seems
to require a prior knowledge of the Kollsman limits to understand the
situation completely, which in many cases causes much misinterpretation of
the QFE options.
Dudley


"Todd Pattist" wrote in message
...
"Dudley Henriques" wrote:


how can a
QFE setting be used at airports with elevations above our limits here in
the
U.S?

I bet it can't. The highest point in England is 3210' and
Scotland only goes to 4400'.
Todd Pattist
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)
___
Make a commitment to learn something from every flight.
Share what you learn.

Dudley Henriques wrote:

It's amazing that the governing agencies who write this stuff just assume
that sooner or later all of us will just figure out that only airports under
3K feet are eligible for the QFE option. Interesting!!!

Don't you have this backwards? Shouldn't it read: Just because QFE isn't
common in the USA, the manufactorers assume that it's not common
elsewhere either, and sell unsuitable instruments?

Stefan

Dudley Henriques wrote:

It's amazing that the governing agencies who write this stuff just assume
that sooner or later all of us will just figure out that only airports under
3K feet are eligible for the QFE option. Interesting!!!

If the Feds had to explain everything in the AIM, it would be the size of the
Encyclopedia Brittanica.

George Patterson
Battle, n; A method of untying with the teeth a political knot that would
not yield to the tongue.

Dudley,
Another thing that's missing here is the British attitude to the rest of the
world. They're an island in size but a continent in approach to life. And
they don't like foreigners even more than Americans don't. They don't like
things that weren't invented here and, in fact, have an entire organization,
the Civil Aviation Authority, who enforce that idea whenever possible. The
number of aircraft that are certified for aerobatics in the US, but not in
the UK is staggering. I dunno, maybe physics really IS different here.
They do things the way they want to, sod the rest of the world. The issue
of the range of the Kollman window just isn't a concern over here as
explained above, so I can see why no one would take that into account
(unless Brit Kollman windows have a greater range, I don't know)

Shawn
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
link.net...
BINGO!! Understanding the QFE question requires the understanding that all
anticipated destinations are below the limit parameters of the Kollsman
window....which is correct enough....but like most regulations, the way
it's
written is just plain nuts!!!!
Why the hell the powers that be would put in a QFE option without
explaining
that it's tied directly to the Kollsman parameters on the altimeters is
beyond me. I must know a hundred pilots who think it's an available option
anywhere!!! :-))

It's funny about things like this. I've been reading everything I can find
on the use of QFE, even that American Airlines had tried having their
first
officers monitoring a QFE altimeter with the Captain using a standard
altimeter setting on final approaches, (which I understand is no longer
the
case BTW) and there is absolutely nothing out there that specifies the
limiting parameter for QFE due to Kollsman range limits on the instrument
for airports outside the instrument parameters.
It's amazing that the governing agencies who write this stuff just assume
that sooner or later all of us will just figure out that only airports
under
3K feet are eligible for the QFE option. Interesting!!!
I have to admit, it's basic enough, but for someone reading the
regulations,
the assumption is that a QFE setting is available at all anticipated
destinations. I haven't found a reference anywhere that explains QFE as
available only within the Kollsman range. Understanding the regulation
seems
to require a prior knowledge of the Kollsman limits to understand the
situation completely, which in many cases causes much misinterpretation of
the QFE options.
Dudley


"Todd Pattist" wrote in message
...
"Dudley Henriques" wrote:


how can a
QFE setting be used at airports with elevations above our limits here
in
the
U.S?

I bet it can't. The highest point in England is 3210' and
Scotland only goes to 4400'.
Todd Pattist
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)
___
Make a commitment to learn something from every flight.
Share what you learn.

On Tue, 9 Mar 2004 at 16:19:25 in message
, Todd Pattist
wrote:

I bet it can't. The highest point in England is 3210' and
Scotland only goes to 4400'.

Correct but don't forget Snowdon in Wales at 3590'

Snowdon in particular is quite formidable to look at as a pedestrian! I
have walked up an easy route three times in my life and it frightened
me!
--
David CL Francis

"David CL Francis" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 9 Mar 2004 at 16:19:25 in message
, Todd Pattist
wrote:

I bet it can't. The highest point in England is 3210' and
Scotland only goes to 4400'.

Correct but don't forget Snowdon in Wales at 3590'

Snowdon in particular is quite formidable to look at as a pedestrian! I
have walked up an easy route three times in my life and it frightened
me!
--
David CL Francis

Is there any one place in particular that you are talking about. I googled,
and it is really pretty.
--
Jim in NC


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.608 / Virus Database: 388 - Release Date: 3/3/2004

Nope, you're not missing anything, Dudley. Except maybe topography. I
don't think there ARE any airports higher than 2,000 feet in the UK, and
there's very little terrain that high, even in the Highlands. The practice
may have grown up here in Britain because high terrain isn't an issue. Most
alitimeters over here these days are US manufacture anyways because most of
the fleet were built in the US.

Your understanding of QFE is correct, it's the station elevation such that
the altimeter reads 0 at some point on the ground. It can lead to the odd
problem now and again, but normally isn't an issue. My airport is at about
500 ft MSL, so if someone hasn't set their altimeter to QFE, but flies that
pattern altitude as it reads on the instrument (without doing the mental
arithmetic to ADD 1,000 ft), he'll come across the field at 500' AGL. Add
to this that the Brits join the field at 2000 AGL on the side opposite
downwind (known as "The Dead side"), descend to 1,000' AGL as they pass
crosswind over the far end of the runway, then turn downwind and start their
descent. This means you get clowns passing the far end of the runway at 500
' AGL, just as you're passing through the same airspace in a climb in the
Pitts. Normally not a problem as not many GA airplanes can be at 500' by
the end of our runway, but it's happened to me once and is just something I
have to keep an eye out for when flying the Pitts. As I say, in 300 hours
flying in the UK, that's only happened to me once, so it's not common.

Different way of "approaching" the same issue (sorry for the pun).

Shawn
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
ink.net...

"ShawnD2112" wrote in message
...
Dudley,
Interesting that the "right or wrongness" of the issue is of such a
concern.
Isn't it funny how different cultures view the same problem with
different
perspectives? Here in the UK, no motorcycle rider would even think of
getting on a bike without a full set of leathers, helmet, and gloves.
In
the States, guys ride in shorts, sneakers, and no helmets where they
can.
On the other side of the coin, Brits "filter" through traffic on
motorcycles, riding between lanes just to get through traffic faster,
whether it be in the city or the highway. Most Americans think that's
too
dangerous to think about.

Here in the UK, setting the altimeter to field elevation, QFE, before
takeoff is not only allowed, it's taught and expected. Likewise, when
approaching the airfield, you're expected to reset the altimeter to that
airfield's QFE in the pattern. In the States, we would think that would
lead to all kinds of altitude-related accidents.

Different perspectives, but who's to say what's right and wrong?

Shawn

Hi Shawn;

Your comment on using QFE in the UK brings up an interesting point that
I'm
researching right now and perhaps you can answer for me possibly.
Here in the U.S., our altimeters have a Kollsman range of about 27.5 and
32.0. This, considering an average atmosphere, denies you setting an
altimeter to 0 on any airport runway above about 2500 to 3000 feet MSL!!!
I'm wondering, since QFE is common in the UK, and by definition QFE is a
station pressure setting that will produce a 0 reading on the altimeter
when
on the ground at that station; are your altimeters in the UK equipped with
a
wider Kollsman range in the setting windows perhaps, and if not, how can a
QFE setting be used at airports with elevations above our limits here in
the
U.S? It's an interesting point....or I must be missing something in my old
age :-))
Dudley

Sounds like a nightmare to me. I've zeroed the needle on occasion for
demonstration work, but I just don't get the logic behind the QFE lobby.
It's just one more thing to worry about changing, and that can lead to
serious problems in the air. I'm a standardization buff. Making as much a
constant as opposed to a variable when it comes to flying has always seemed
to me the best way to go with things. Having several MORE ways to use an
altimeter just adds to normal altimeter confusion; it;s just one more thing
that someone can forget to set or change or figure out.
:-))
Dudley
"ShawnD2112" wrote in message
news:GPy3c.2813$m56.1401@newsfe1-win...
Nope, you're not missing anything, Dudley. Except maybe topography. I
don't think there ARE any airports higher than 2,000 feet in the UK, and
there's very little terrain that high, even in the Highlands. The
practice
may have grown up here in Britain because high terrain isn't an issue.
Most
alitimeters over here these days are US manufacture anyways because most
of
the fleet were built in the US.

Your understanding of QFE is correct, it's the station elevation such that
the altimeter reads 0 at some point on the ground. It can lead to the odd
problem now and again, but normally isn't an issue. My airport is at
about
500 ft MSL, so if someone hasn't set their altimeter to QFE, but flies
that
pattern altitude as it reads on the instrument (without doing the mental
arithmetic to ADD 1,000 ft), he'll come across the field at 500' AGL. Add
to this that the Brits join the field at 2000 AGL on the side opposite
downwind (known as "The Dead side"), descend to 1,000' AGL as they pass
crosswind over the far end of the runway, then turn downwind and start
their
descent. This means you get clowns passing the far end of the runway at
500
' AGL, just as you're passing through the same airspace in a climb in the
Pitts. Normally not a problem as not many GA airplanes can be at 500' by
the end of our runway, but it's happened to me once and is just something
I
have to keep an eye out for when flying the Pitts. As I say, in 300 hours
flying in the UK, that's only happened to me once, so it's not common.

Different way of "approaching" the same issue (sorry for the pun).

Shawn
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
ink.net...

"ShawnD2112" wrote in message
...
Dudley,
Interesting that the "right or wrongness" of the issue is of such a
concern.
Isn't it funny how different cultures view the same problem with
different
perspectives? Here in the UK, no motorcycle rider would even think of
getting on a bike without a full set of leathers, helmet, and gloves.
In
the States, guys ride in shorts, sneakers, and no helmets where they
can.
On the other side of the coin, Brits "filter" through traffic on
motorcycles, riding between lanes just to get through traffic faster,
whether it be in the city or the highway. Most Americans think that's
too
dangerous to think about.

Here in the UK, setting the altimeter to field elevation, QFE, before
takeoff is not only allowed, it's taught and expected. Likewise, when
approaching the airfield, you're expected to reset the altimeter to
that
airfield's QFE in the pattern. In the States, we would think that
would
lead to all kinds of altitude-related accidents.

Different perspectives, but who's to say what's right and wrong?

Shawn

Hi Shawn;

Your comment on using QFE in the UK brings up an interesting point that
I'm
researching right now and perhaps you can answer for me possibly.
Here in the U.S., our altimeters have a Kollsman range of about 27.5 and
32.0. This, considering an average atmosphere, denies you setting an
altimeter to 0 on any airport runway above about 2500 to 3000 feet
MSL!!!
I'm wondering, since QFE is common in the UK, and by definition QFE is a
station pressure setting that will produce a 0 reading on the altimeter
when
on the ground at that station; are your altimeters in the UK equipped
with
a
wider Kollsman range in the setting windows perhaps, and if not, how can
a
QFE setting be used at airports with elevations above our limits here in
the
U.S? It's an interesting point....or I must be missing something in my
old
age :-))
Dudley

On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 15:27:22 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
wrote:

Sounds like a nightmare to me. I've zeroed the needle on occasion for
demonstration work, but I just don't get the logic behind the QFE lobby.
It's just one more thing to worry about changing, and that can lead to
serious problems in the air. I'm a standardization buff. Making as much a
constant as opposed to a variable when it comes to flying has always seemed
to me the best way to go with things. Having several MORE ways to use an
altimeter just adds to normal altimeter confusion; it;s just one more thing
that someone can forget to set or change or figure out.
:-))
Dudley


As for confusion, I'm from the UK but learned in USA and don't find a
problem with QNH or QFE but add to that Flight Levels and Regional
Pressure then you can really have fun.

VFR is usually flown (enroute) using Regional Pressure which is valid
for 1 hour for a specific area. It's equivalent to the estimated
lowest QHN for the next hour. I doubt it's ever more than a few
millibars different to QNH so the error is likely to be small
therefore why bother?

What is a really odd is that IFR is flown on flight levels and in the
UK that's frequently from 3000ft upwards. If you're flying VFR at any
height you can choose to use either QNH (Regional) or FL. (Note the UK
transition altitude is usually 3000ft.)

In the aircraft I fly, in the UK, I have the luxury of being able to
set the lower altimeter on QHN and the upper one on whatever I'm
flying at the time (QNH, QFE, Regional or FL). Additionally the
transponder reads FL.

It was rather nice in January to land at Death Valley (-200ft) then
back to Las Vegas at 2005ft. Made the Wife wonder why the altimeter
did not read zero when we landed!


David

Piper Warrior G-BHJO
Scotland, UK

E-mail (Remove Space after pilot): pilot

Dudley,
I agree with your statement about keeping things standardized. I like to
keep everything that way so I can save what little brain capacity I have for
handling the deviations from standard. Likewise, I apply that same logic to
trimming. I trim for nearly any condition I'll be in for more than about 30
seconds, especially on landing. Nothing to do with stick forces, per se,
but then I'm only flying the airplane away from the trim. The airplane's
flying the basic line all by itself, I'm just flying the bits that are away
from that line. Keeps life less exciting but a bit longer lasting, I
reckon.

Funnily enough, though, this QFE thing is one that you soon get used to and
find that it seldom causes a problem. A person is just as likely to get the
mental arithmetic wrong on entering the pattern as they are to forget to set
QFE/QNH. Nearly all airfields here have a manned radio most of the time.
It's standard procedure to give arriving aircraft the active runway and the
QFE, so you get the information and a reminder. Most airfields have a
standard 1,000 foot pattern, 2,000 foot overhead join (now, if you want to
talk about a stupid procedure, let's get started on THAT one!), unless
otherwise noted, so you reset QFE, shoot for 2,000 feet and Bob's your
uncle.

Interesting your input in the other thread about spinning the Mustang. When
I was volunteering at The Fighter Collection, I was assigned to Moose, a D
model, and used to spend a bit of time reading the pilot's handbook and the
maintenance manual. (Never got to fly in her, though) I seem to remember
the Mustang required something like 10,000 feet to recover from a spin.
True in your experience?

Shawn


"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
link.net...
Sounds like a nightmare to me. I've zeroed the needle on occasion for
demonstration work, but I just don't get the logic behind the QFE lobby.
It's just one more thing to worry about changing, and that can lead to
serious problems in the air. I'm a standardization buff. Making as much a
constant as opposed to a variable when it comes to flying has always
seemed
to me the best way to go with things. Having several MORE ways to use an
altimeter just adds to normal altimeter confusion; it;s just one more
thing
that someone can forget to set or change or figure out.
:-))
Dudley
"ShawnD2112" wrote in message
news:GPy3c.2813$m56.1401@newsfe1-win...
Nope, you're not missing anything, Dudley. Except maybe topography. I
don't think there ARE any airports higher than 2,000 feet in the UK, and
there's very little terrain that high, even in the Highlands. The
practice
may have grown up here in Britain because high terrain isn't an issue.
Most
alitimeters over here these days are US manufacture anyways because most
of
the fleet were built in the US.

Your understanding of QFE is correct, it's the station elevation such
that
the altimeter reads 0 at some point on the ground. It can lead to the
odd
problem now and again, but normally isn't an issue. My airport is at
about
500 ft MSL, so if someone hasn't set their altimeter to QFE, but flies
that
pattern altitude as it reads on the instrument (without doing the mental
arithmetic to ADD 1,000 ft), he'll come across the field at 500' AGL.
Add
to this that the Brits join the field at 2000 AGL on the side opposite
downwind (known as "The Dead side"), descend to 1,000' AGL as they pass
crosswind over the far end of the runway, then turn downwind and start
their
descent. This means you get clowns passing the far end of the runway at
500
' AGL, just as you're passing through the same airspace in a climb in
the
Pitts. Normally not a problem as not many GA airplanes can be at 500'
by
the end of our runway, but it's happened to me once and is just
something
I
have to keep an eye out for when flying the Pitts. As I say, in 300
hours
flying in the UK, that's only happened to me once, so it's not common.

Different way of "approaching" the same issue (sorry for the pun).

Shawn
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
ink.net...

"ShawnD2112" wrote in message
...
Dudley,
Interesting that the "right or wrongness" of the issue is of such a
concern.
Isn't it funny how different cultures view the same problem with
different
perspectives? Here in the UK, no motorcycle rider would even think
of
getting on a bike without a full set of leathers, helmet, and
gloves.
In
the States, guys ride in shorts, sneakers, and no helmets where they
can.
On the other side of the coin, Brits "filter" through traffic on
motorcycles, riding between lanes just to get through traffic
faster,
whether it be in the city or the highway. Most Americans think
that's
too
dangerous to think about.

Here in the UK, setting the altimeter to field elevation, QFE,
before
takeoff is not only allowed, it's taught and expected. Likewise,
when
approaching the airfield, you're expected to reset the altimeter to
that
airfield's QFE in the pattern. In the States, we would think that
would
lead to all kinds of altitude-related accidents.

Different perspectives, but who's to say what's right and wrong?

Shawn

Hi Shawn;

Your comment on using QFE in the UK brings up an interesting point
that
I'm
researching right now and perhaps you can answer for me possibly.
Here in the U.S., our altimeters have a Kollsman range of about 27.5
and
32.0. This, considering an average atmosphere, denies you setting an
altimeter to 0 on any airport runway above about 2500 to 3000 feet
MSL!!!
I'm wondering, since QFE is common in the UK, and by definition QFE is
a
station pressure setting that will produce a 0 reading on the
altimeter
when
on the ground at that station; are your altimeters in the UK equipped
with
a
wider Kollsman range in the setting windows perhaps, and if not, how
can
a
QFE setting be used at airports with elevations above our limits here
in
the
U.S? It's an interesting point....or I must be missing something in my
old
age :-))
Dudley