Tow banner on a PP license

BTIZ wrote:
glider towing in the US for PP is authorized per the FARs.. he can log
hours
toward additional ratings.. but he can not receive monetary compensation..

FAR91.309

Perhaps I missed something in 91.309, but logging hours is "compensation" as
in "for hire or compensation".

Hilton

"Hilton" wrote in message
ink.net...
BTIZ wrote:
glider towing in the US for PP is authorized per the FARs.. he can log
hours
toward additional ratings.. but he can not receive monetary
compensation..

FAR91.309

Perhaps I missed something in 91.309, but logging hours is "compensation"
as
in "for hire or compensation".

Hilton


I should have elaborated,

FAR61.113(g) Private Pilot Privileges: A private pilot who meets the
requirements of 61.69 of this part may act as pilot in command of an
aircraft towing a glider.

FAR61.69 Glider towing: Experience and training requirements.

If you add in the information found in the FAA FAQ file for Part 61, you
will find that the "intent" is that the PP may log the hours while towing
gliders, and those hours may be used towards additional ratings. This is
directed towards glider "club" operations. It is not "intended" that a PP
may be compensated beyond hours in a log book and a PP cannot tow for a
Commercial Glider tow operation where the "owner" is receiving revenue for
the PP tow services.

Additional information may be found with the Soaring Society of America who
worked with the FAA to get the wording in FAR61.113(g) to allow soaring or
glider club operations who have limited funds and limited power rated pilots
to act as tow pilots.

BT

"BTIZ" wrote in message news:br8ac.64770$1I5.52101@fed1read01...
"Hilton" wrote in message
ink.net...
BTIZ wrote:
glider towing in the US for PP is authorized per the FARs.. he can log
hours
toward additional ratings.. but he can not receive monetary
compensation..

FAR91.309

Perhaps I missed something in 91.309, but logging hours is "compensation"
as
in "for hire or compensation".

Hilton


I should have elaborated,

FAR61.113(g) Private Pilot Privileges: A private pilot who meets the
requirements of 61.69 of this part may act as pilot in command of an
aircraft towing a glider.

FAR61.69 Glider towing: Experience and training requirements.

If you add in the information found in the FAA FAQ file for Part 61, you
will find that the "intent" is that the PP may log the hours while towing
gliders, and those hours may be used towards additional ratings. This is
directed towards glider "club" operations. It is not "intended" that a PP
may be compensated beyond hours in a log book and a PP cannot tow for a
Commercial Glider tow operation where the "owner" is receiving revenue for
the PP tow services.

Additional information may be found with the Soaring Society of America who
worked with the FAA to get the wording in FAR61.113(g) to allow soaring or
glider club operations who have limited funds and limited power rated pilots
to act as tow pilots.

BT


The reason you can tow gliders with a private (assuming the glider
pilot is paying some nominal fee for the tow and the pilot isn't
getting any of it) is because one of the glider associations has a
waver. Just like the ultra light association has FAA wavers.

-Robert

"Victor" wrote in message
om...
I have a friend that is purchasing a plane and will start a business
of tow banner. He said I could fly the plane for him without been paid
, this way I can get many hours on my logbook.

Is it legal to do banner towing on a PP license without receiving
payment for it?
From what I've read, banner towing is very dangerous. There are several
operators at LWM in MA, and I remember a pilot getting killed a few years
ago while picking up a banner. It's exhausting work because you are alway
flying on the edge of a stall and need to talk to the other banner planes in
the area for coordination. When I looked into that work, they wanted at
least 500 hours.

"William W. Plummer" wrote in message
news:041ac.28579$gA5.396231@attbi_s03...

"Victor" wrote in message
om...
I have a friend that is purchasing a plane and will start a business
of tow banner. He said I could fly the plane for him without been paid
, this way I can get many hours on my logbook.

Is it legal to do banner towing on a PP license without receiving
payment for it?
From what I've read, banner towing is very dangerous. There are several
operators at LWM in MA, and I remember a pilot getting killed a few years
ago while picking up a banner. It's exhausting work because you are alway
flying on the edge of a stall and need to talk to the other banner planes in
the area for coordination. When I looked into that work, they wanted at
least 500 hours.

Well, I wouldn't call it VERY dangerous, but it is more hazardous than Sunday
morning coffee runs. Unless you fly those in a 60 year old airplane at 300'
while on the edge of a stall, day in and day out :-)

I've spent a few seasons towing in Jersey, and for one, I would NOT be doing it
for free! Aside from it not being legal (see previous posts), you have the
problem of getting on his waiver. You see, once your friend get's a waiver from
the FAA saying his company can tow, every one of his pilots has to have a
checkride with the feds before they're allowed to work for him. I know of only
one person who is on a banner tow waiver with a private, and he was the owner of
said company.

And remember, in additon to flying low and slow all day, day in and day out,
pickups aren't exactly the most natural thing to get used to as well. We'd dive
at the ground at about a 30-40 degree dive (Cubs are DRAGGY airplanes) to get
the required airspeed, and smoothly pull out at the right time, around 10-15'
AGL to snag the banner with our tow hook. Transitioning to a steep zoom climb
(40-50 degrees nose up) and leveling off at 200-300' AGL almost at stall.

In the two summers I worked for this company, I saw 6 accidents of varying
severity, from taxiing mistakes (12 hour days are a LONG time to be in a Cub,
and mistakes happen towards the end) to planes being flipped on their back, no
fatals or serious injuries thank god. That was just at our company. There were
another few others at other companys, one crashing on takeoff and fireballing
(80 gallons of avgas in a Super Cub stalling on climbout is NOT a good
combination)

Don't get me wrong, it was a fun job and I loved every minute of it. But I
wouldn't want to go back and try it again at 100TT, I probibly wouldn't have
survived it.

--
Mike
(and, yes, I plan on going back for a 3rd season)

In article , Mike O'Malley wrote:
Well, I wouldn't call it VERY dangerous, but it is more hazardous than Sunday
morning coffee runs. Unless you fly those in a 60 year old airplane at 300'
while on the edge of a stall, day in and day out :-)

There are certainly hazards - the one tow operation I know of wrecks at
least one Pawnee a year banner towing.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

Victor wrote:

I have a friend that is purchasing a plane and will start a business
of tow banner. He said I could fly the plane for him without been paid
, this way I can get many hours on my logbook.

Is it legal to do banner towing on a PP license without receiving
payment for it?

No. First of all you need a waiver by the FAA before you can tow anything
around, but your mother-in-law in the back seat.

Second, your "friend" is taking somebody's money in consideration of
flying a banner. This alone makes it a commercial operation, whether or
not the pilot is being paid in cash.

Third, even if your "friend" was not taking somebody's money for the
flight, as a PP, the pilot would need to share expenses evenly for the
flight AND have a commonality of purpose.

As an aside, I would note that banner towing is one of the more hazardous
jobs in flying airplanes. It does not have a stellar safety record, and
is not something I would do casually.

In article , Tow Chick wrote:
Is it legal to do banner towing on a PP license without receiving
payment for it?

No. First of all you need a waiver by the FAA before you can tow anything
around, but your mother-in-law in the back seat.

Not quite - although you cannot tow banners without a waiver, you can
certainly tow gliders without one (and it doesn't have to be your
mother-in-law in the glider, which is somewhat fortunate).

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

(Victor) wrote in message . com...
I have a friend that is purchasing a plane and will start a business
of tow banner. He said I could fly the plane for him without been paid
, this way I can get many hours on my logbook.

Is it legal to do banner towing on a PP license without receiving
payment for it?

Just a side note....

A friend of mine *was* a banner instructor before 9/11. He said since
then the banner towing business has been severly hurt. With 3 mile
restrictions around most sporting events the business is hurting.

I'm sure some people still tow over beaches or citys. But he said
after 9/11 the lack of need for banner instructors made him go back to
his other CFI/II duties. However, he's glad to be doing somthing
different now. I think his words were "If you think a 2 - 3 hour
student will kill you, try flying with a banner towing student..."