Why fly fast approaches?

On Thu, 01 Jul 2004 00:09:18 GMT, EDR wrote:

I did my BFR last month in a PA28-181. It is an airplane new to the
flying club I belong to and although I have more than 60 hours in type,
the owner requires anyone who desires to rent it, have an instructor
checkout.

Prior to the flight I calculated a weight and balance and appropriate
speeds for the actual takeoff and landing weights.

I started to pull for takeoff at the calculated speed and the
instructor said, "No, no, wait until 65 kts."
Okay.

For the first landing, I stated the calculated 1.5Vso and 1.3Vso speeds.
The instructor again said, "No, no, that's too slow. Use 75 kts."

When we were on the ground, I asked him why he wanted the faster speeds.
His answer was that this was not a new airplane, so the book values
needed to be increased to allow for age related things that could
affect the noted V-speeds.

Unless the instructor was joking with you, it might be time for a new
instructor. Aircraft age has nothing to do with V speeds.

I fly final in my PA28-180 at 80mph, and slow to 75 crossing the
threshold. This is right at 1.3Vso, (57*1.3=74) and it works well.

I did my BFR last month in a PA28-181. It is an airplane new to the
flying club I belong to and although I have more than 60 hours in type,
the owner requires anyone who desires to rent it, have an instructor
checkout.

Prior to the flight I calculated a weight and balance and appropriate
speeds for the actual takeoff and landing weights.

I started to pull for takeoff at the calculated speed and the
instructor said, "No, no, wait until 65 kts."
Okay.

For the first landing, I stated the calculated 1.5Vso and 1.3Vso speeds.
The instructor again said, "No, no, that's too slow. Use 75 kts."

When we were on the ground, I asked him why he wanted the faster speeds.
His answer was that this was not a new airplane, so the book values
needed to be increased to allow for age related things that could
affect the noted V-speeds.

Unless the instructor was joking with you, it might be time for a new
instructor. Aircraft age has nothing to do with V speeds.

I fly final in my PA28-180 at 80mph, and slow to 75 crossing the
threshold. This is right at 1.3Vso, (57*1.3=74) and it works well.


Approach speeds really depend on the airplane. If it can dump speed and energy
fast once you're over the fence -- 172s can do that -- you can still enter the
flare slow enough. On the other hand, if you are carrying 80 kts in an
airplane like a Mooney, you'll need a lot of runway to fly over before you want
to get down to where ground effect makes it even more efficient.

Maybe the question should be at what speed do you want to enter ground effect.

I think this instructor needs some recurrent training. He's got some issues.
Why is
he afraid to fly slow? I've always used 1.3Vso on final and 1.2Vso over the
fence.
I adjust that depending on my weight. If you don't use the right airspeed
you're not
going to get a good landing. As for takeoff, when it wants to fly it will. I
just start
applying light back pressure at around 55mph (151 Warrior, 2 notches flaps)
and when it's ready
it will leave the ground.


"EDR" wrote in message
...
I did my BFR last month in a PA28-181. It is an airplane new to the
flying club I belong to and although I have more than 60 hours in type,
the owner requires anyone who desires to rent it, have an instructor
checkout.

Prior to the flight I calculated a weight and balance and appropriate
speeds for the actual takeoff and landing weights.

I started to pull for takeoff at the calculated speed and the
instructor said, "No, no, wait until 65 kts."
Okay.

For the first landing, I stated the calculated 1.5Vso and 1.3Vso speeds.
The instructor again said, "No, no, that's too slow. Use 75 kts."

When we were on the ground, I asked him why he wanted the faster speeds.
His answer was that this was not a new airplane, so the book values
needed to be increased to allow for age related things that could
affect the noted V-speeds.

I can understand the reasoning for a student pilot, the likes of which
this instructor does a lot of training with, but I am 1200+ and over 20
years of flying. I am thinking in terms of performance as would apply
to the Commercial standards. Hence, the reason for calculating the
necessary speeds prior to flight.

I will add that flying at the instructor's recommended speeds leads to
float in the roundout and required more runway. Flying at the
calculated speeds would have resulted in a full stall landing at the
threshhold and clearing at the first turnoff.

What is the perspective of the instructors in this group?
The instructor I fly with knows me. Why would he not hold me to
Commercial standards?

1.3 Vso makes a lot of people nervous especially inexperienced pilot

-
pilo

http://www.pilotboard.com I love this place
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Edr,

His answer was that this was not a new airplane, so the book values
needed to be increased to allow for age related things that could
affect the noted V-speeds.

Things like? Ah, thought so.


I can understand the reasoning for a student pilot,


I can't! Not at all! Student pilots absolutely need to learn to fly by
the book, fly slow and make use of the capabilities of the airplane.

A simple explanation: This is not a good instructor.


--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

EDR wrote in message . ..
When we were on the ground, I asked him why he wanted the faster speeds.
His answer was that this was not a new airplane, so the book values
needed to be increased to allow for age related things that could
affect the noted V-speeds.

I'll be interested in what others say, but my take on this is:

As far as I know, all the V-speeds you're talking about are a direct
function of stall speed.

It is possible for age-related items to affect stall speed.

But if that's the case, I think the correct course of action is to
go stall the plane at gross weight and lower weights, and see how well
the actual stall speed corresponds to the "book" stall speed at gross
weight and the stall speed calculated at lower weights.

I also think if the plane is known to stall at higher than "book"
speeds, it's something the instructor should discuss with pilots
he's checking out, on the ground.

I can understand the reasoning for a student pilot

I can't, actually. Adding "5 kts for gust factor (ok), 5 kts
for Grandma, 5 kts because I'm not so sure where this plane really
stalls" leads to a lot of accidents IMO -- overrun accidents when
the pilot lands on a "short" 2000 ft runway instead of the 4000+
beheamoths where extra speed doesn't matter, and directional control
accidents because IMHO the trickiest phase of landing is transitioning
from flight to taxi, and the longer one "floats", the longer one
spends in this phase with extra time for a strong gust of wind
to cause trouble. The temptation to "force it on" also increases
as the plane floats and floats and the pilot starts seeing the end
of the runway approaching.

Airspeed control is one of the most critical aspects of flight --
why not demand it of student pilots from the start, and train
pilots who are capable of operating safely at high DA and short
fields?

JMO,
Sydney

"Snowbird" wrote in message
m...
I'll be interested in what others say, but my take on this is:

As far as I know, all the V-speeds you're talking about are a direct
function of stall speed.

For landing, true. For takeoff, not true. Vx and Vy, being the result of
excess thrust and excess power (respectively), depend not just on the fixed
characteristics of the airframe, but also the declining characteristics of
the engine (and are not directly related to stall speed in any case).

Now, that said, I agree with the others who point out that if the airplane's
performance has changed enough that the published V speeds are not correct,
then the airplane needs fixing. A slight reduction in engine power might be
expected, but one large enough that Vx and Vy have changed enough for the
pilot to notice warrants repair.

And as you say, even the airframe can suffer during its lifetime in ways
that might affect stall speed. But again, I'd say that if the stall speed
has increased above the published speeds, the correct course of action is to
fix the airplane.

And generally speaking, I wouldn't expect the stall speed to change in a way
noticeable to any but the most detail-oriented test pilot; changes in gross
weight are going to be much more significant, and those mostly occur due to
differences in loading (how many passengers, what weights, amount of fuel
carried, etc.). 30 pounds of accumulated junk, while not unheard of, is
still unusual, and even that much extra weight isn't going to produce a
noticeable change on the airspeed indicator when stalling the airplane.

I'm in complete agreement that it's foolish to add airspeed on landing. The
extra speed might put you farther away from some problems (premature stall)
but it's guaranteed to put to closer to other problems (long landing,
porpoising, nose strike, etc.). Adding airspeed to compensate for gusts is
reasonable, but adding airspeed just because you think the airplane is old
is not, and is unsafe.

Pete

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message ...
"Snowbird" wrote in message
m...
I'll be interested in what others say, but my take on this is:

As far as I know, all the V-speeds you're talking about are a direct
function of stall speed.

For landing, true. For takeoff, not true. Vx and Vy

'Scuse, Peter, but I said "all the V speeds you're talking about",
not "all V-speeds".

As best I can tell, the original poster was talking about
Vr, and landing speed.

I don't think he discussed being asked to climb out at a different
speed than Vx or Vy, but in any event I think a better argument
can be made for that practice in appropriate circumstances.

Now, if you want to argue for Vr being a function of excess thrust
and excess power -- go ahead.

Cheers,
Sydney

"Snowbird" wrote in message
om...
'Scuse, Peter, but I said "all the V speeds you're talking about",
not "all V-speeds".

As best I can tell, the original poster was talking about
Vr, and landing speed.

Whatever. I find Vx and Vy to be perfectly relevant in this thread, even
looking at only the first post. You want to be offended, go right
ahead...wouldn't be the first time.

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message ...
"Snowbird" wrote in message
om...
'Scuse, Peter, but I said "all the V speeds you're talking about",
not "all V-speeds".

As best I can tell, the original poster was talking about
Vr, and landing speed.

Whatever. I find Vx and Vy to be perfectly relevant in this thread, even
looking at only the first post. You want to be offended, go right
ahead...wouldn't be the first time.

Vx and Vy are certainly relevant to bring into the discussion, but
they weren't mentioned in the original poster's description, and I
referred to that. You were responding to my post, and saying "not true"
to me. I simply clarified what I'd meant.

That doesn't mean that Vx and Vy aren't relevant to introduce, as
additional factors which *are* dependent on factors other than stall
speed. It's a reasonable point -- provided it's not introduced in a
way which puts words into someone else's mouth or refutes a claim
they weren't making.

I await your explanation of Vr and what it depends upon, and I note
that one can fly behind an engine later shown to have one cylinder
completely flat, and not notice any particular changes to Vy, the
rate of climb obtained at that speed (under DA conditions not near
the edge of the envelope, admittedly), or cruise airspeed.

Cheers,
Sydney