Logging time in a P51D?

On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 22:43:18 -0700, "C J Campbell"
wrote:

You may log the time you were controlling the aircraft as pilot time. You
may log it as PIC time if the P-51 does not require a type rating.
§ 61.51 Pilot logbooks.
(c) Logging of pilot time. The pilot time described in this section may be
used to:

(1) Apply for a certificate or rating issued under this part; or

(2) Satisfy the recent flight experience requirements of this part.

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A recreational, private, or
commercial pilot may log pilot-in- command time only for that flight time
during which that person-

(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the
pilot is rated;


I don't think he can log PIC unless the person he was with was a CFI.
He said he didn't fly taildraggers for 20 years. This would mean he
is not current to act as PIC with passengers until he does 3 full stop
landings. If he wants to log it as PIC I think to be perfectly legal
he should also log it as dual received and have the CFI sign it
(assumong the guy was a CFI).

He can definitely log total time regardless.

z

"zatatime" wrote in message
...

I don't think he can log PIC unless the person he was with was a CFI.
He said he didn't fly taildraggers for 20 years. This would mean he
is not current to act as PIC with passengers until he does 3 full stop
landings.

Currency has nothing to do with it. You do not have to act as PIC in order
to log PIC. Read the regulation quoted in my post.

On Wed, 7 Jul 2004 07:40:39 -0700, "C J Campbell"
wrote:


"zatatime" wrote in message
.. .

I don't think he can log PIC unless the person he was with was a CFI.
He said he didn't fly taildraggers for 20 years. This would mean he
is not current to act as PIC with passengers until he does 3 full stop
landings.

Currency has nothing to do with it. You do not have to act as PIC in order
to log PIC. Read the regulation quoted in my post.


I did. This does not preclude him from needing to satisfy 61.57. The
other person in the plane cannot act as PIC in a P51, while not the
"sole manipulator of the controls" since it does not require more than
one crew member. If he cannot act as PIC because he's not flying, and
the original poster can't act as PIC because he isn't current then who
is acting as PIC? Seems to me the answer is no one. This goes back
to a lengthy thread not to long ago about logging time. I don't agree
that "no one" can be acting as PIC, and I don't believe the FAA would
either. Satisfying one reg does not mean your are in full compliance
with all regs (which I'm sure you will agree). I think this is one of
those sticky spots where multiple regs come into play and you need to
not only satisfy each reg, but also the implied overlap of the regs in
question. "The spirit of the law" carries alot of weight in situations
that aren't cut and dry.

z

"zatatime" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 7 Jul 2004 07:40:39 -0700, "C J Campbell"
wrote:


"zatatime" wrote in message
.. .

I don't think he can log PIC unless the person he was with was a CFI.
He said he didn't fly taildraggers for 20 years. This would mean he
is not current to act as PIC with passengers until he does 3 full stop
landings.

Currency has nothing to do with it. You do not have to act as PIC in
order
to log PIC. Read the regulation quoted in my post.


I did. This does not preclude him from needing to satisfy 61.57. The
other person in the plane cannot act as PIC in a P51, while not the
"sole manipulator of the controls" since it does not require more than
one crew member. If he cannot act as PIC because he's not flying, and
the original poster can't act as PIC because he isn't current then who
is acting as PIC?

You have so many faulty assumptions here it is difficult to know where to
begin.

First of all, the aircraft does not have to require more than one crewmember
in order for the sole manipulator of the controls to act as PIC.

Secondly, the non-flying pilot may act as PIC without being able to log it,
as in this case. What makes you think he is not able to act as PIC?

The current and rated pilot remains PIC throughout the flight whether he is
logging PIC or not.

The FAA has made it clear in numerous rulings and in the regulations
themselves that logging PIC and acting PIC are two different things. Their
own test materials give numerous questions pertaining to this matter. I know
of one FAA question that asks whether an instructor that has no medical can
log PIC and whether he is acting as PIC. The correct answer is that the
instructor may log PIC any time that he is giving instruction, but he may
not act as PIC because he has no medical. Therefore he can only give
instruction to pilots who can act as PIC even though he himself logs the
time as PIC.

The last lengthy thread you refer to shows you obstinately holding to this
opinion of yours despite the fact that everyone who has any knowledge of the
matter disagrees with you. You are a minority of one. You are flat-out
wrong. And you are beginning to sound pretty stupid as well.

"justaguy" wrote in message
om

I took a ride in a P51D recently. Can I log the hour towards total
time or should I just log it for the memory?

Log whatever you'd like. Just don't count everything you log.

This flight is definitely one that you'd want to write about (perhaps even
more verbosely than usual), but don't expect it to count towards a rating.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_s...veloperid=4415
____________________

I took a ride in a P51D recently.

Who cares how you log it?

Lucky C...
;)

Peter

Agreed, log it however you want. Just don't depend on that hour to
count for any checkrides.

Bushy wrote:
I took a ride in a P51D recently.


Who cares how you log it?

Lucky C...
;)

Peter

Thanks to everyone,
I had the same problems going through the FAR's and the section on
LOA's.
It wasn't an hour of dual but I don't really care because I don't need
any hours for further checkrides or ratings. Regardless of anything
else it was a dream flight out over the Sierras to Lake Tahoe. There
is nothing like excess power to make flying fun. That whole flight is
burned into my memory. I logged it for the memory, and for total
time. I definitely agree with the post below, I am lucky, and I have
great friends. Now I have to go work on the guy with a Stearman and
another one with a 1929 Bellanca.
M. Grinnin


"Bushy" wrote

Who cares how you log it?

Lucky C...
;)

Peter

(justaguy) wrote in message . com...
Anybody care to take a shot at this question?

I took a ride in a P51D recently.
Can I log the hour towards total time or
should I just log it for the memory?

M. Grinnin

While the debate about FARs goes on I will simply tell you of my
personal experience. In 1995 I had the pleasure of flying Crazy Horse
with Lee Lauder bach. We spent 1.5 hours in the air, 0.3 of which he
flew formation with a photo plane doing a feature for the German
magazine "aerokurier" (see the June, 1995 edition if you can find
it).After learning power settings and getting the feel, I then spent
1.2 hours at the controls doing aerobatics and simulated straffing
runs over an inactive military facility. Arriving back at Kissimmee,
he had me do an overhead break and then talked me through a landing,
which I bounced and he recovered. Lee (impressive credentials and a
CFI) made the entry in my logbook: 1.2 hrs PIC. I had been signed off
and was current in tailwheel and complex before this ride. Trying not
to editorialize on what I thought of the experience but hope this
helps answer your question.