Opinions on a M20J

On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 17:17:07 GMT, "Julian Scarfe"
wrote:

Julian,

I'll take issue with you on items 3 and 4.

3) Its landing distance is greater than many compatible tourers: because the
airframe is clean, it floats. So for short fields it tends to be the
landing distance that is limiting. I wouldn't want to operate a M20J
regularly out of much less than 2700 ft as you don't have much safety margin
at less than that. If you have that and don't visit short strips very
often, no problem.

Usually, the only reason it floats is because folk come in at well over
1.3Vso. I would have no hesitation about being based at a 2,000' strip (at
sea level). Going into KBGR regularly, I rarely have a problem turning off
at the first taxiway (1100') and I'm usually off the ground from my home
base in about 1000', without using short-field technique.


4) Its crosswind performance is ugly, particularly for take-offs. The
undercarriage uses rubber disks for its springs, and the wing is very low to
the ground. Hence any bumps and you lose any side force from the wheels,
and you have a lot of lift relatively early in the take-off roll. If you
operate an M20J from a single runway airport in a windy part of the world,
this may be an issue. If you only rarely have to deal with 20 knot
crosswinds, no problem.

Again, I think this is a technique issue, both on takeoff and landing.

I do agree with you about rough field operation. There just isn't the
clearance that other a/c have.


--ron

In article ,
Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
I do agree with you about rough field operation. There just isn't the
clearance that other a/c have.

And beware those who say the 3-bladed prop has more clearance -- it's the
same diameter.

--
Ben Jackson

http://www.ben.com/

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
...

I'll take issue with you on items 3 and 4.

With the principle (comparative to similar types) or the numbers?

3) Its landing distance is greater than many compatible tourers: because
the
airframe is clean, it floats. So for short fields it tends to be the
landing distance that is limiting. I wouldn't want to operate a M20J
regularly out of much less than 2700 ft as you don't have much safety
margin
at less than that. If you have that and don't visit short strips very
often, no problem.

Usually, the only reason it floats is because folk come in at well over
1.3Vso.

Yeah but that's the same with every aircraft type.

I would have no hesitation about being based at a 2,000' strip (at
sea level).

Maybe something got lost in translation. All our runways are measured in
metres. I
agree 2700 ft (about 820 m) is quite conservative. 2000 ft feels short.
The book gross performance is 1550 ft, which is about 2200 ft with the
recommended safety factor.

Going into KBGR regularly, I rarely have a problem turning off
at the first taxiway (1100') and I'm usually off the ground from my home
base in about 1000', without using short-field technique.

Touching down at the end, that seems about right. If you're landing it in
1100 ft from 50 ft then I'd like to see it... ;-)

4) Its crosswind performance is ugly, particularly for take-offs. The
undercarriage uses rubber disks for its springs, and the wing is very low
to
the ground. Hence any bumps and you lose any side force from the wheels,
and you have a lot of lift relatively early in the take-off roll. If you
operate an M20J from a single runway airport in a windy part of the
world,
this may be an issue. If you only rarely have to deal with 20 knot
crosswinds, no problem.

Again, I think this is a technique issue, both on takeoff and landing.

Never had a serious issue on landing. But there are physical limits for
take-off for any aircraft. I never like the idea of spending much time on
one wheel for a take-off, so I start to get nervous when I can't keep both
tyres on the runway below rotation speed.

I don't know what else you fly, Ron, but aircraft like the TB20, the PA28s
and most light twins seem to handle crosswind take-offs with rather more
comfort.

Julian

airframe is clean, it floats. So for short fields it tends to be the
landing distance that is limiting. I wouldn't want to operate a M20J
regularly out of much less than 2700 ft as you don't have much safety
margin
at less than that. If you have that and don't visit short strips very
often, no problem.

Usually, the only reason it floats is because folk come in at well over
1.3Vso.

Yeah but that's the same with every aircraft type.


What Mooney jocks learn pretty quickly is that landing the thing is a bit
diferent than say a 182. It's clean, so going from 1.3Vso to stall takes more
distance than in an aiplane that isn't as aerodynamically clean. It has a very
low wing, so if you get into ground effect going just a little faster than you
should, you'll have increased the needed landing distance a lot. Knowing the
airplane well means you'll learn to get the airspeed way down coming over the
fence, and you'll start your flare a little higher to avoid ground effect for a
while longer. Just be aware of things like that and making the turnoff that's a
thousand feet from the threshold isn't a big deal.

W/R/T xwinds -- the M20J has lots of rudder authority. I've landed in some
pretty bad ones, I don't know the actual number, and had rudder left over at
touchdown. You'll not want to make a full flap full stall landing, but getting
a beep out of the stall warning before touchdown is possible, even in a
crosswind.

As for taking off in a crosswind, I'm not sure what technique is being used for
rolling along on one wheel, but in my airplane I keep it on the ground -- all
three wheels -- until I have the airspeed I want for liftoff in a crosswind,
and then I lift it off. There's nothing to be gained by having the yoke back,
even on a short field, until you can lift off. The only exception I can think
of is if the field is soft. I've never been on a soft short field in my
Mooney, but then again I fly mostly in the eastern US, getting on the other
side of the Mississippi only once every couple of years.

"AJW" wrote in message
...

What Mooney jocks learn pretty quickly is that landing the thing is a bit
diferent than say a 182. It's clean, so going from 1.3Vso to stall takes
more
distance than in an aiplane that isn't as aerodynamically clean. It has a
very
low wing, so if you get into ground effect going just a little faster than
you
should, you'll have increased the needed landing distance a lot.

Agreed. While I'm not an instructor, I have sat in the right seat while at
least 4 different pilots got to know the Mooney. That makes 5 pilots I know
of who learned about the need for precise speed control the looooong way.

As for taking off in a crosswind, I'm not sure what technique is being
used for
rolling along on one wheel, but in my airplane I keep it on the ground --
all
three wheels -- until I have the airspeed I want for liftoff in a
crosswind,
and then I lift it off. There's nothing to be gained by having the yoke
back,
even on a short field, until you can lift off.

Well that's what I do too. The problem seems to be that at about 45 to 50
kt, the wing, low and clean, starts producing substantial lift, taking the
weight off the wheels. At that sort of speed, the side force on the
fuselage from a strong crosswind can get to the level at which the wheels
can't maintain enough grip on the runway to resist. In flight (and for
landing) it's easy -- you just stick the upwind wing down. But unless
you're prepared to do that on take-off, you (I) can't stop the thing moving
sideways, particularly if the runway is wet, or uneven.

Aerodynamics dictates that this limit must exist, and it certainly kicks in
earlier than full rudder travel on the M20J. But it may differ for
different circumstances, and I'm sure that careful handling and lots of
practice allows you to get closer to the absolute limit.

Julian Scarfe

On Mon, 06 Sep 2004 06:53:15 GMT, "Julian Scarfe"
wrote:

I don't know what else you fly, Ron, but aircraft like the TB20, the PA28s
and most light twins seem to handle crosswind take-offs with rather more
comfort.

Sorry about that. I did some reinstallation and my signature got changed.
But I've got over 2,500 hours in a Mooney M20E. And I presently fly out of
a single runway airport with occasionally strong, gusty crosswinds. I've
not had a problem with crosswind takeoffs, either. Just hold the nose
down, aileron into the wind, and pop-off when ready to fly. Obviously on a
paved strip.

And if you are talking about a 2,000' (610m) runway with trees to the end,
then yes, I would not want to be based there, given a choice. But, at
least here in the US, I don't believe I've ever seen a paved, short runway
where the 50' obstacle was at the beginning of the runway.

Grass is another story. I've been into Lubec airport (65B) which is 2024'
(617m), grass, with trees right to the end. Landing was not much of a
problem. But takeoff was close to the trees, even at 150 lbs under MGW.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
...
[...]
And if you are talking about a 2,000' (610m) runway with trees to the end,
then yes, I would not want to be based there, given a choice. But, at
least here in the US, I don't believe I've ever seen a paved, short runway
where the 50' obstacle was at the beginning of the runway.

I'm struggling to think of one myself.

However, I have seen many paved runways with 100-150' obstacles not very far
from the runway (500-1000' perhaps). These are roughly equivalent to a 50'
obstacle right at the runway.

Here's one of the "easier" examples of the above:
http://www.airnav.com/airport/W10

Pete

On Mon, 06 Sep 2004 06:53:15 GMT, "Julian Scarfe"
wrote:

I don't know what else you fly, Ron, but aircraft like the TB20, the
PA28s
and most light twins seem to handle crosswind take-offs with rather more
comfort.

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
...

Sorry about that. I did some reinstallation and my signature got changed.
But I've got over 2,500 hours in a Mooney M20E. And I presently fly out
of
a single runway airport with occasionally strong, gusty crosswinds. I've
not had a problem with crosswind takeoffs, either. Just hold the nose
down, aileron into the wind, and pop-off when ready to fly. Obviously on
a
paved strip.

Well, I was looking to see if the M20J and M20E had any differences that
would explain our difference in perception, but I'm not sure there is any.
The M20J was cleaned up by Lo Presti to the tune of about 20 knots, but
isn't it the same wing set at the same height above the ground? I've
described the issue I had in other posts, so I won't repeat it. While I
don't have your time on the aircraft, I did accumulate more than 500 hours.

And if you are talking about a 2,000' (610m) runway with trees to the end,
then yes, I would not want to be based there, given a choice. But, at
least here in the US, I don't believe I've ever seen a paved, short runway
where the 50' obstacle was at the beginning of the runway.

Grass is another story. I've been into Lubec airport (65B) which is 2024'
(617m), grass, with trees right to the end. Landing was not much of a
problem. But takeoff was close to the trees, even at 150 lbs under MGW.

I had a co-owner/partner in the Mooney group who is much braver than I was
with shorter strips. I'll check to see what he regards as "short". ;-)

Julian

3) Its landing distance is greater than many compatible tourers: because the
airframe is clean, it floats. So for short fields it tends to be the
landing distance that is limiting. I wouldn't want to operate a M20J
regularly out of much less than 2700 ft as you don't have much safety margin
at less than that. If you have that and don't visit short strips very
often, no problem.

Usually, the only reason it floats is because folk come in at well over
1.3Vso. I would have no hesitation about being based at a 2,000' strip (at
sea level). Going into KBGR regularly, I rarely have a problem turning off
at the first taxiway (1100') and I'm usually off the ground from my home
base in about 1000', without using short-field technique.

Shoot, anybody that bases their mooney at a field longer than 1500' is
a sissy...(just kidding) seriously, however, you can make a 1000' turn
pretty easily in my M20C (it stalls at 50 kt, mid-weight approach at
65 kt). However, it's nice basing at a long runway for those windy,
low ceiling icy nights :-)

"Julian Scarfe" wrote in message ...
"Jon Kraus" wrote in message
...
http://www.aso.com/i.aso/AircraftVie...craft_id=84399

I flew this yesterday and it was nice (but what the hell do I know) He
is asking 105k but Vref says it is worth $113k. That seemed high but
again what do I know. Any Mooney owners out there want to give an
opinion on the M20J? Thanks in advance.

If you're in the market for a fast, fuel-efficient single-engined tourer,
there are 4 reasons not to buy a Mooney:

1) It doesn't haul as much payload over short ranges as some comparable
tourers. On ours, one the IFR equipment was on board, it was 480 lb with
full fuel, which means 670 lb with half fuel. Of course half-fuel still
keeps you in the air for 3 hours at 160 KTAS. By the time you get to longer
range missions, it matters less because the others have to carry more weight
in fuel. If most of your missions are two up, no problem.

The useful load in a 201 will be right around 1000 lbs. Don't hold the
fact that the plane carries 7 hours of gas against it. I never fill
mine to the top.


2) It doesn't like rough surfaces. In my part of the world there are a much
greater proportion of grass runways than in the US. I've landed on grass,
it's OK, but I'd be very reluctant to base a Mooney at a grass field as I'd
be worried about the prop the whole time. If you don't intend to operate on
grass, it's not an issue.

Grass may not be very good (unless its very short). However, I've
landed my Mooney on the beach many times in Mexico.


3) Its landing distance is greater than many compatible tourers: because the
airframe is clean, it floats. So for short fields it tends to be the
landing distance that is limiting. I wouldn't want to operate a M20J
regularly out of much less than 2700 ft as you don't have much safety margin
at less than that. If you have that and don't visit short strips very
often, no problem.

Sounds like you are coming in too fast. My home field has about 2000
feet of landing runway (4000 available for take off). Even fully
loaded, it isn't too hard to stop in 1000 feet. Shoft final speed
should be around 70 mph.


4) Its crosswind performance is ugly, particularly for take-offs. The
undercarriage uses rubber disks for its springs, and the wing is very low to
the ground. Hence any bumps and you lose any side force from the wheels,
and you have a lot of lift relatively early in the take-off roll. If you
operate an M20J from a single runway airport in a windy part of the world,
this may be an issue. If you only rarely have to deal with 20 knot
crosswinds, no problem.

I fly around the Southwest. Take off and landing with 25-30 knots of
cross wind is no problem. The plane sit so low that you don't even
feel the cross wind in the flare.



If none of those things bother you, just buy the aircraft and spend 12
years, like me, enjoying 160 knots on 10 gallons per hour and trying to
figure out why anyone would buy anything else. :-)

The 201 is great. If you don't mind going 10 knots slower you can buy
an F model Mooney for about 1/2 the price. The laster F's have the
same panel, etc as the 201, just w/o the speed mods.

-Robert, Mooney owner and Mooney CFI